The people have spoken... [Archive] - Page 11

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Stefan

11-11-2004, 20:19

catholics arnt as harsh on people as you chritian dissenters you condem everything no joke

Of course there have been issuses of protestant violence in the past and probably still today, but catholics have done it as well (does the spainish inquisition ring a bell?)

Catholics arent as liberal as you think, in technicallity you believe only those who partake in the catholic sacrements and abide by the rules of the CHURCH are saved.

Sir Turylon

11-11-2004, 22:02

Here's the problem.

According to Scriptures, including passages in the Old Testament...
There is one route to salvation. The blood of Christ. If you do not accept Christ as the Son of God, there is absolutely no way you will be getting into heaven. Period. Now... nobody can say if those who never heard the gospel will be saved or not. Evangelicals believe that any child under 3 years of age will be saved, since they cannot possibly understand the gospel. Any child that is aborted is saved, and those who abort them and are not saved will have to face the child they murdered.. uh oh....

Purgatory is never found in Scriptures. The catholic church invented it from the concept of Abraham's bossum. Here is what the Scriptures says. All Jews who die go to Abraham's bossum, not heaven. Those who die in Christ, or who accept Christ, go up into heaven until the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of Christ. Those who are dead TO Christ go to Hades until the final judgement. There is no place in Scripture where it says "Do not worry about your dead relatives because if you pray enough they will be saved." I challange you to find such a Scripture.

True, there is no "select elite" when it comes to accepting Christ. Any and all can accept Him as their Savior. Even Hitler could have accepted Christ and he would have been forgiven, but he didn't.

@Noldy
Yes, modernists. This philosophy of "all religions are okay" is exactly what was profecized in Revelations and the other end-times prophetic passages. The unitarian church has grown rapidly over the past 5 years. "Even the elite will be deceived in those days..." This passage refers to those who are "elite in religion." It is interesting to note that theologians are beginning to clump all religions together.

@Idolatry.
Any graven image. This means anything. You should not worship a poster, a computer screen. The commandment would translate into "Do not worship and give praise to anything other than your Lord, and do not love anything more than your Lord and savior" today. If you love something so greatly that you put it before god, you are commiting idolatry. If you praise and worship God because He hasnblessed you with many things... this is okay... For you are exhalting God for your success, and not exhalting your success. See the difference?

catholics arnt as harsh on people as you chritian dissenters you condem everything no joke
Catholicism has been moving towards unitarianisn for many years now. This started back under Constantine's reign as emperor. Christianity was watered down by Rome so it could use it to provide control over certain regions of its empire. The best example is how Mary was exhalted to her current status of divinity. The second best example is how the Catholic church used the crusades to further its goals. As well as the "Resolution of sins while on the Crusades" in an attempt to say the bishops and cardinals could forgive men of their sins. Read through the Scriptures again. Where does it say that a man can forgive you of your sins? Where does it say; do not worry the forgiveness of your sins because if you commit sin in God's name it will not count?

god does not let you suffer for eternity only how much bad youve done here will me measure in time in hell you will once be able to go to heaven once youve found your good-self and your inner person

What religion did you get this nonsense from? just wondering.

*no offense meant in any above thing* It is amazing that I even have to say that....

Stefan

11-11-2004, 23:30

Here's the problem.

Those who die in Christ, or who accept Christ, go up into heaven until the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of Christ. Those who are dead TO Christ go to Hades until the final judgement.

I thought all those who die in christ were raised around the time of armaggeden and after the 1000 years the rest were raised and faced judgement? can you explain in more detail please?

Sir Turylon

12-11-2004, 00:11

Well. Tim LaHaye has an interesting prophecy book charting the phrophetic scriptures, as well as what has happened in the "after-life."

Tim's book (http://www.cyben.com/cgi-bin/miva?/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Product_Code=CET&Category_Code=007)

According to Scriptures, when Christ died he took the keys of Hades and death. This is symbolic because now life and death is through Christ, and no longer through the Abrahamic covenant. Right now, those who die without accepting Christ are taken to hades where they will remain until the final judgement after the millenial reign of Christ on earth. Those who accept Christ and die are taken up to Heaven and await the raptured church. What is still a bit fuzzy to me is what has happened to the Jews who have died. Some believe they are taken to Hades, since Abraham's bossum was supposedly taken up to heaven. Others believe they still are in Abraham's bossum and will remain there till the New Heaven and Earth are brought down. I'm not sure about them.

One thing is for certain though. Since Calvary, those who reject Christ will remain in hades until the final judgement where Satan accuses them of their sins and they are judged "by their works." Those who accept Christ never go through this, for we are judged at the Mercy seat of Christ. Since we accepted Him as our Savior, when the final judgement comes around all our sins will be washed away.

When armageddon (or Megido) is finished, the "goats are seperated from the sheep." It is not clear if all unbelievers are taken to Hades, but that is the accepted theory. When Christ steps foot on the Mt of Olives He judges those who accepted Him. It is only a judgement of our works though, for the sins are gone. The crowns of Glory are handed out and we celebrate 1000 years of sinfree life until the final rebellion against God. During this time, those who rejected Christ are still down in Hades. Once the final rebellion has ended, Satan is destroyed in the lake of fire, where the anti-christ and false prophet were already taken at the end of armageddon. At this time Hades is annihilated and those in it are judged. What is not clear is if this includes those in Abraham's bossum or not...

BTW, So far every prophetic Scripture has come true. Keep an eye on the EU and Israel-Palestine. Also watch the unification of all religions, which began many years ago... but has rapidly advanced the past 5-10 years... along with the rise of "gaia worship" and "new-age philosophy."

Cali Knight

12-11-2004, 02:57

I think the death of Arafat marks another sign of the end times, (when Christ comes back) cuze if Israel takes back what was original theirs then makes peace with Palestine. Good news for me and Sir Turylon and others like us.:) but this might not happen for many more years, mabye not for centuries.

Hector

12-11-2004, 06:08

those lands are not of Israel its population is no longer the same as it was

Sir Turylon

12-11-2004, 07:21

Abeth

12-11-2004, 07:52

The God of the Islam is absolutely NOT the same as the one the Jews and Christians worship. For instance, Allah wants people to suffer so that they will harden. The Christian God doesnt want us to suffer, he wants us to come in heaven and be perfectly happy for eternity. The God of the Jews and Christians is almost the same, christians believe in the father, the son, and the holy ghost. Jews just believe in Jahweh. And after all, Jesus not only came to save us all, but also to correct the Judeism. Alot of things in the Old Testament were interpreted wrong, and alot of things the jews included, like slaughtering lambs, wich Jesus corrected.
Ofcourese Buddhism and Christianity have the same moral elements. Is there a religion that teaches us to kill all black? Or to eat our firstborn child? Very few, i believe. Almost each religion teaches us not to steal,...etc
There are great differences between heaven and Nirvana. Please study more on this.

Islam teaches that the Jews and Christians are peoples "of the book". Jesus is, in Islamic traditions, a prophet of Allah. Allah and God are indeed the same person, yet there are two major world religions in which he is worshipped. Judaism is the third in which there is commonality - the Christian God is the Jewish God. And if the Islamic God is the Christian God, well, you get the picture. a = b, b = c, then a = c. Try not to look at it in terms of religious partisanship, but instead look at what the three religious scriptures point to when they define God in a positional sense.

Whats the point in judgement then if all go to heaven anyway? There would be absolutely no sense in leading a good life.

No, I did not say that all will go to heaven (if such a place even exists). What I have said is that, from what can be determined from Christian teachings, those who did not have the chance to hear of Christ would not be condemned for it. There are many other ways in which an all-powerful deity could decide to judge you, most of which I'm sure none of us can fathom.

Also, I did not compare Nirvana to heaven - I compared Nirvana to being "at one with God". That is, being intimately linked to the spirit of God. Not necessarily being dead and in heaven.

I am not necessarily a religious person, as can be evidenced. I am, however, a spiritual one - and I have decided that my own personal quest for God is more important than established regimens of ritual and tradition. God has revealed himself in different ways to different people, as I stated earlier. Who's to say that all of the world's religions were not linked attempts at establishing a world-wide set of moral codes pleasing to God? Do you really know for sure?

People like Abeth is what i discribe as modernists. They are overtollerent, and believe all go to heaven. Each and every religiion is good, as long as your heart feels good with it. I always charctarise this as haooy people in a most abstract building they call church. They are all singing happy church songs, give the body of jesus in the most extrordinary ways.

You should approach things with the idea that you know nothing, therefore you are open to everything. If you limit your options from the beginning then you cannot make a well informed decision. It is not "modernist", it is carrying on the same line of thinking that has carried western civilization to greatness since the enlightenment.

True, there is no "select elite" when it comes to accepting Christ. Any and all can accept Him as their Savior. Even Hitler could have accepted Christ and he would have been forgiven, but he didn't.

Not everyone can accept Christ as savior since not everyone is given the chance. If it was truly God's intention that the only way to God was through Christ he would have made it so that everyone had the chance to learn of Christ. And, as stated earlier, none of us know the true intentions or plan of God. Why we continue to speak as experts on the matter defies my ability to reason; did God come to you in your sleep and whisper in your ear his entire plan for the universe? :p

And besides, wasn't this thread about the election and religion's impact on it? How did we get derailed to the afterlife? ... :silly:

Anguille2

12-11-2004, 08:51

Christians dont believe that only 1 christian denomination is saved, but there is a big difference between worshiping christ and worshipping say buddha. Jesus claims that believeing in him will save you, but buddists, jews, muslims etc are denying christ entirely. So if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice how can they be saved? If you had to belong to a special group to be saved then death bed repentence (something which is definetly supported in christianity) would be impossible. Again im going to ask you to support your claims with any sort of scriptural evidence.

"He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abbideth on him" john 3:36

I shall seek and find when i get home on sunday :) Anyway we will all find out when we die.
Besides, to deny something, you must first know it.
My opinion is that when you die, you will meet god. Then you can accept him or deny him like Lucifer did.

Anguille2

12-11-2004, 09:06

here's a fact check for ya.

Palestinians were given a seperate state. Instead of living peacefully, they decided to try to wipe Israel out. Fast forward to 2000, and you'll see the occupations of the "west bank" as well as the gaza strip. Looking at the British Mandate, you'll see the UN really changed it around.

Maps of area (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_maps.php)
and
Some history on it (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence.php)

and an answer to the whole "occupied territory" debate.
right here. (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_territories_occupied_or_not.php)

:cheers:
not that it matters, right cali?

Very good links, thanks
However, and i don't question the existence of Israel, it has been a creation done by the British Empire. The local population had not been consulted and therefore couldn't accept it. I do believe they should have accepted the Jews as brothers. Still when you do injustice to someone it's not always easy to accept it.

Noldy

12-11-2004, 17:51

Islam teaches that the Jews and Christians are peoples "of the book". Jesus is, in Islamic traditions, a prophet of Allah. Allah and God are indeed the same person, yet there are two major world religions in which he is worshipped. Judaism is the third in which there is commonality - the Christian God is the Jewish God. And if the Islamic God is the Christian God, well, you get the picture. a = b, b = c, then a = c. Try not to look at it in terms of religious partisanship, but instead look at what the three religious scriptures point to when they define God in a positional sense.

So what if they are the same? What if I grant you that? This doesnt make, Islam, Jews and Chrisrianity all the same! If you have lasagna, of wich meat is most importent ingredient. You cant say that when you have a pile of meat, you have the right lasagna. Meat alone doesnt make lasagna, just like God/Allah/Jahweh doesnt make the right religion.

@Sir Turylon:
I except your challange :p
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

In Mathew 5:25-26 and Lukas 12: 58-59 Jesus strongly hints that there must be suffered in order to be forgiven.

In 1 Cor 15:29 Paul referres to people being "baptised for the dead". I think hes has been referring to acts of penance and preayers. Baptism is often used as metaphor for suffering, as you can read in Mk 10:39-39, Lk 3:16, and Lk 12:50. This means there is a propriety of prayers (actual suffering) for the dead.

Often the Bible mentions "fire" and a purging, cleansing process by wich we become holy. You can find this in Mal 3:1-4 and Mich 7:8-9

Then there are several more these are the most conclusive:

1 Cor 3:11-15:
15 If any mans work, he shall suffer loss; but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

2 Cor 5:10:
For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

2 Makk 12: 43-45:
And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection. For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead, and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

Feel free to comment :)

Noldy

12-11-2004, 18:06

Stefan

12-11-2004, 18:17

So what if they are the same? What if I grant you that? This doesnt make, Islam, Jews and Chrisrianity all the same! If you have lasagna, of wich meat is most importent ingredient. You cant say that when you have a pile of meat, you have the right lasagna. Meat alone doesnt make lasagna, just like God/Allah/Jahweh doesnt make the right religion.

@Sir Turylon:
I except your challange :p
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

In Mathew 5:25-26 and Lukas 12: 58-59 Jesus strongly hints that there must be suffered in order to be forgiven.

In 1 Cor 15:29 Paul referres to people being "baptised for the dead". I think hes has been referring to acts of penance and preayers. Baptism is often used as metaphor for suffering, as you can read in Mk 10:39-39, Lk 3:16, and Lk 12:50. This means there is a propriety of prayers (actual suffering) for the dead.

Often the Bible mentions "fire" and a purging, cleansing process by wich we become holy. You can find this in Mal 3:1-4 and Mich 7:8-9

Then there are several more these are the most conclusive:

1 Cor 3:11-15:
15 If any mans work, he shall suffer loss; but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

2 Cor 5:10:
For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

2 Makk 12: 43-45:
And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection. For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead, and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

Feel free to comment :)

Purgatory
Catholicism teaches that after death, some people are sent to a place called purgatory for further purification before entering heaven:

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. " Pg. 2658, #1030
"The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect..." Pg. 268-269, #1031

Did this critical doctrine come from God, or is it another tradition of men? Here' s your answer, right out of the Catechism:

"The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent." Pg. 268-269, #1031

Is it unreasonable to ask where a group of men got their information about the afterlife to formulate such a doctrine?

Precious Roman Catholic, if you are praying for loved ones you believe are in purgatory, you need to be aware that God didn't tell you they were there, a group of religious leaders did:

"But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory..." Pg. 249, #954

If you suffer, it's not a gift

What makes this doctrine even more disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists. Neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven. On the contrary, God's Word declares that salvation is a free gift:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
"...by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

Would an honest, loving God offer you eternal life as a free gift - then make you suffer to earn it - then lie about it in His Word?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8

If the Bible is to be believed, then there is no need for further purification for those who die in Christ. They have already been justified by Jesus:

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." Romans 5:9
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:24

The Apostle Paul drives home this same point:

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..." 1 Corinthians 6:11

True Christians are already purified because Jesus put away all sin on the cross:

"...but now once in the end of the world hath he (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:26

God's children are not required to suffer for salvation because they have been bought and paid for:

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 Corinthians 6:20

The price was the blood of Jesus Christ:

"...feed the church of God, which he (Jesus) hath purchased with his own blood." Acts 20:28

Conclusion

If the Bible is so clear on this subject, why did the Catholic church institute a doctrine that has persuaded faithful members to give multiplied millions of dollars to the church to have prayers and Masses said on behalf of departed loved ones? You must answer that for yourself.

Now, at least you know that the doctrine of purgatory was hatched from the minds of mortal men:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1

taken from : http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160_23.asp

Noldy

12-11-2004, 20:30

What makes this doctrine even more disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists. Neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven. On the contrary, God's Word declares that salvation is a free gift
What the F*****!! Havnt you read my post? READ MY POST PLEASE! At least comment on my post, man! Ive been working ages on this, yet you dont even take the time to read it.

If you suffer, it's not a gift
What do ya mean by that?

The Apostle Paul drives home this same point:

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..." 1 Corinthians 6:11

True Christians are already purified because Jesus put away all sin on the cross:

"...but now once in the end of the world hath he (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:26

God's children are not required to suffer for salvation because they have been bought and paid for:

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 Corinthians 6:20

The price was the blood of Jesus Christ:

"...feed the church of God, which he (Jesus) hath purchased with his own blood." Acts 20:28

God is holy and perfect as well as loving, and this process is simply the way we must enter into His presence. Besides, it's much more merciful to allow people to be purged of their remaining sins after death as a prelude to heaven, than to condemn them to hell. Whatever the reason, God has revealed purgatory to us in the Bible. Paul talks about the "judgment seat of Christ" (1 Cor 3:11-15, 2 Cor 5:10), where our works will be "tested," after which some will be saved "only as through fire." In all essentials, this is precisely what Catholics mean by purgatory. Don't you believe in the "judgment seat of Christ," and that holiness is required to see God?

Noldy

12-11-2004, 20:31

@Stefan:
Here are just a few examples:
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Stefan

12-11-2004, 23:34

What the F*****!! Havnt you read my post? READ MY POST PLEASE! At least comment on my post, man! Ive been working ages on this, yet you dont even take the time to read it.

What do ya mean by that?

God is holy and perfect as well as loving, and this process is simply the way we must enter into His presence. Besides, it's much more merciful to allow people to be purged of their remaining sins after death as a prelude to heaven, than to condemn them to hell. Whatever the reason, God has revealed purgatory to us in the Bible. Paul talks about the "judgment seat of Christ" (1 Cor 3:11-15, 2 Cor 5:10), where our works will be "tested," after which some will be saved "only as through fire." In all essentials, this is precisely what Catholics mean by purgatory. Don't you believe in the "judgment seat of Christ," and that holiness is required to see God?

I dont know what to believe now.. here are some quotes ive found.

1 john 5:13 - "these things have I written onto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternallife." This confuses me becuase it says you know you are saved, whereas your quotes would appear to support the catholic idea that presumption is a sin.

john 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." again it says wil be saved not will have the hope(chance) of being saved.

john 5:24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." basically the same as above.

Im not a very well versed christian, id like to see what sir turlyon has to say.ill ask some of my friends to provide their opinion on the subjet as well.

Just so you know what i posted was not written by me, i just took it from the website i refererenced. theres no need to curse at me.

Sir Turylon

13-11-2004, 00:09

Noldy. Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say people need "purification."

Any reference to forgiveness is nbot based upon their entry into heaven. The forgiveness on earth is tied into the receival of blessings from God. God will not bless you when you have not confessed your sins. He will also not denie your salvation and entrance to heaven because you are still in sin. This notion that those who die and are still with sin is un-Scriptual. All sin was cleansed at Calvary. Let's say you die right now. If you have not repented from your sins you commited say.. a hour before your death... God is not going to take away your salvation and send you to Purgatory. This was invented by the Catholic church as a way for people to "save their dead relatives." The whole notion of purgatory contradicts salvation by the blood of Christ.

Now, I am not saying that Catholics are not saved. What I am saying is that the dogmas and doctrines of the church cannot stand up to Scriptural integrity.

You've stated this yourself.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Notice you said Catholic teaching, not Scriptural teaching. The purificatioon was done at Calvary. When our mortal bodies die, our spirit is taken to heaven where we reside with Christ until the millenial celebration (I call it celebration cause... seriously... it's one big 1000 year long party if Christ is living amongst us.)

I must say your quoting of Romans 5 is very interesting... Since that section talks about how faith gives us hope through troubling times... Has nothing to do with having hope in God's salvation....

Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
wrong. First of all. The only church sect I know of that preaches purgatory is Catholicism. further more...

Matthew 12:32 is talking about how the Pharisees slandered the Holy Spirit by attributing the miracles Christ performed as works of satan. If you read that... Christ is saying that blashpemy of the Spirit will not be forgiven on earth or in heaven.... not "there is a second time of repentance." The "age to come" could also be a reference to the millenial celebration, since there will be a time of testing at the end.

In Mathew 5:25-26 and Lukas 12: 58-59 Jesus strongly hints that there must be suffered in order to be forgiven.

Are you saying that after we accept salvation we must then go through suffering to earn it? If so, this is wholey un-Scriptural (John 3:16 rebuffs this idea of suffering for salvation) When you speak of "praying for people in purgatory to get them through," you are talking about something the Catholic church invented.

The fire process is not refered to in salvation. The "purging by fire" is mentioned in the process of renewing and strengthening the spirit. We go through the fire and our spirit is refined to a finer metal.... not we go through the fire to get rid of our sins.

What version of Scriptures are you reading from?
If interested I can send you a Spirit Filled Life Application Bible.... I have a few spare ones laying around. :)

Your comments on Allah and Jahweh is correct. Also, remember that the God of Abraham and David directly contacted man. Allah never did. Allah sent an "angel" to teach Mohammud. It is interesting to note that Lucifer was cast out of heaven... and when Jacob wrestled with the angel, the angel was Micheal. Micheal asked for forgiveness of his tardiness because he was fighting the prinicipality of the air... aka.. Lucifer. It has long been accepted that Lucifer set up his kingdom around the Arabic states and remains there until the new Roman empire is formed. This is due to the fact that every religion not based upon the God of Abraham has migrated from the region of Babylon. :cheers:

*no offense meant to Hector... of course*

Sir Turylon

13-11-2004, 00:28

Oh... gotta double post this...

The judgement seat of Christ is NOT in heaven. It is on the Mount of Olives when He returns. This is factually backed up in Scriptures. Christians are never judged on their works.
[quote]Paul talks about the "judgment seat of Christ" (1 Cor 3:11-15, 2 Cor 5:10), where our works will be "tested," after which some will be saved "only as through fire." In all essentials, this is precisely what Catholics mean by purgatory. Don't you believe in the "judgment seat of Christ," and that holiness is required to see God?[/quote

Read 1 Cor, 3:14-15 "If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

He is talking about the judgement of the works we do here on earth... not salvation. If we do things for the Glory of God, those works will remain with us forever. If our works are NOT done for the Glory of God, they are burned up in the fire like straw and wood. We lose these works, but do NOT suffer because of them. The entire part of "suffer loss" does NOT pertain to suffering from sins. Rather, it pertains to losing everything that is not done for God's Glory. Once again, this was distorted by the Catholic Church ages ago to convince people that if you did good deeds, like giving money to the church, you will be saved.

Once again, the judgement seat of Christ is NOT in heaven, it is on the Mount of Olives.
Revelations 20:4 proves this... as well as... Daniel 7:9, 22, 27; Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30; Hebrew 12:1,2.

I'll edit and post more references after I eat dinner.

Remember... Salvation is through Calvary, through the blood of Christ... Not through works.

lurking horror

13-11-2004, 06:02

Sir Turylon: "Palestinians were given a seperate state. Instead of living peacefully, they decided to try to wipe Israel out. Fast forward to 2000, and you'll see the occupations of the "west bank" as well as the gaza strip. Looking at the British Mandate, you'll see the UN really changed it around."

Don't oversimplify the issue of the Palestinian state. You are discussing a group of people forcibly (and sometimes violently) removed from their homes. Neither side of the conflict you are reffering to can claimto have clean hands.

An interesting viewpoint on this subject can be found here:

http://www.fantagraphics.com/artist/sacco/more_pal_gal/p3.html

Joe Saccos book is a relativly impartial one. He spent time with people on both sides of the conflict. Interviewed them and transcribed their individual opinions, perspectives and stories into a graphic novel. I highly reccomend it.

Abeth

13-11-2004, 07:01

FOLKS! GOD AND ALLAH ARE NOT THE SAME!
The storm god of Arabia was actually before Muhammad's time. Allah was just one of many gods of the day. The Arabic name "Allah" distinguishes him from "ilah," which could refer to any of their previous dieties. Muhammad changed his new religion from pantheism to the "one god" concept. Ironically, that idea may have come from the Judeo-Christian influence of the region, with which Muhammad was not impressed. He used this new religion to attempt to unite the Arabian peninsula because things had, apparently, become quite decadent. In his day, there were more blood-feuds than anything else.

The proof is in the pudding: We become like the god we worship. Muhammad's people were already warlike - like the god they worshipped (your basic "storm gods" are usually warrior gods). Though he might have talked about a merciful Allah, Muhammad was merciless to his enemies.

A few personality differences between God and Allah:

When God directed a tribal massacre over the Canaanites, though the Israelites failed to eliminate them, He didn't order more slaughter. No! He just told them not to have anything more to do with them! Basically, excise the Canaanites through attrition.
Also, God (Elohim) frequently forgives and renews His people.
Allah, on the other hand, cannot boast of this kind of relationship with anyone.

Yet according to Islam, Christians and Jews are heretics? I said in the positional sense, not the perceived or believed. When Muslims look for God, they look in the same direction Christians do. Muslims believe that their God is the same God of the Christians and Jews, yet the Christians and Jews managed to pervert God's will and so God came to them.

Therefore, Allah and God are the same. It's just the way in which God is worshipped that differs.