second patch vote

[sayyid]

Where can I download mods for this game?

[Doux]

(...) there's no reason why to make it free.
But you wrote that positive (+) kingdompower gave an income penalty, so that would be costly already and not "free" in the sense you meant. I meant with "for free" that you don't have to spend money/piety on increasing it, since the effect is a income malus already.

sayyid - have a look in the Modding, Scenario's and Savegames section of these forums.
This thread (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?t=4304) lists some of them.

[Elvain]

But you wrote that positive (+) kingdompower gave an income penalty, so that would be costly already and not "free" in the sense you meant. I meant with "for free" that you don't have to spend money/piety on increasing it, since the effect is a income malus already..yes, but there is a positive outcome aswell, so I prefere not to remove the cost...

[weaz]

My idea:

Kingdom power: -5 to 5 ( as it is now )
- You can't buy kingdom power
- you gain power by :
*alliance with other kingdom +1 KP
*Conquer other province +1 KP
*Peace treaty with other kingdom +1 KP

Lose power by:

* Break contact KP - 1
* Neglect pope when offered crusade KP -2
* Lose province
*...

what do you think ? It isn't realistic that you "buy" kingdom power;.

[Richard]

My idea of kindom power
Something like EU2 Polices sliders, the second one( Decentralization-Centralization)
What it give in EU2. 0 means it is all the way toward decentralization, 10 means is in centralization.

Slider War Rebellion Technology Production
Setting Exhaustion Delay Costs Efficiency Census
0 -2.0 -6.0 +10 -10 +0.0
1 -1.6 -4.8 +8 -8 +2.5
2 -1.2 -3.6 +6 -6 +5.0
3 -0.8 -2.4 +4 -4 +7.5
4 -0.4 -1.2 +2 -2 +10.0
5 0.0 0.0 0 0 +12.5
6 +0.4 +1.2 -2 +2 +15.0
7 +0.8 +2.4 -4 +4 +17.5
8 +1.2 +3.6 -6 +6 +20.0
9 +1.6 +4.8 -8 +8 +22.5
10 +2.0 +6.0 -10 +10 +25.0

Now to make it work on KOH.
Slider War Trade Diplomacy Production
Setting Exhaustion Efficiency ration Efficiency/Tax collection
0 -4 +2.0 -4 -0
1 -n\a +N\a -3.5 -0
2 -2 +N\A -3 -0
3 -n\a +1.5 -2 -0
4 -1 +1 -1 -0
5 0 0.0 0 0
6 +1 -1. +1 +1
7 +n\a -1.5 +2 +1.5
8 +2 -2 +3 +2
9 +n\a -3 +3.5 +2.5
10 +3 -4 +4 +3

War Exhaustion= Chance people will rebel on new counquered lands, sort of Happines if you are Centralized(Kindom power max) The people will have a harder time accepting your rulership. Lets say you conquered York, they will ussually be at -14 happines. With KP at max they will be at -17, while when it is at 0 they will be at -10.

Trade Efficiency= Max Kp you will Lose some money as you will have more control over everything that happens and well merchants don't like to pay that much tax and will keep away from your realm, while When it is at 0 you will gain a littler bit.

Diplomacy rating= KP at 10 means you have better chance of getting into agreements, and relations heal a bit faster, KP 0 a bit harder to get into agreements.

Production efficiency\Tax= KP at 10 you get a bit extra money from tax as you will have better control, KP 0 you will stay the same.

Note, this needs to be balanced, I just wanted to show my basic Idea as to what Kingdom Power should really affect.

[Traveller]

Obviously KP has lots of different "translations". F.e. another "explanation" of KP came to my mind this morning, while I was watching one history show. KP is more like prestige, right? And in the middle ages prestige meant a lot! And, of course, there were many many ways to gain prestige - titles (a tsar, basileos and emperor are much more than a simple king after all), alliances with strong nations (including royal marriages, which is a serious thing, especially for influencing foreign affairs) etc. And there are also some other not so well known things, like f.e. gold value (of your coins). If you're making your own coins with a high percentage of gold (or silver etc.) in them, this is very good for the prestige of you and your nation. But if your coins devaluate, you start plating your copper coins with silver etc., it means the country is in an economical crysis, you lose prestige and also people might lose faith in you and even revolt. So, increasing KP might also mean increasing the value of your coins - higher KP-more gold (and silver etc.) in your coins, less KP-worthless metal circles and unstable country. So, this is a quite complicated matter and could be expanded really a lot. Trying to revive your economy, increasing the taxes and/or making them pay in cash instead of nature, increasing discontent - low KP. Strong economy, less breaking the restrains by tax-collectors, more stable country - high KP...

[sayyid]

Hey wouldn't it be nicer if there also was a big muslim army, like the crusaders have. At least at the first period. You saw how salahadin came (from Syria) when some caravan got attacked. What could happen, is that for example, baghdad is reporting that a muslim army is coming (from Syria) and that baghdad is the place where muslims inform Syria. This could happen under the same terms as that a crusade comes (in this case, attacking sunni-muslim countries). If baghdad is conquered, than no muslimarmy comes anymore, just as no crusaders come when you conquer the papacy. (and some additional stuff)

It's just some idea

[sayyid]

O yea, something else. Isn't the game also really easy, because people can save their progress before they do something risky and than load it when they fail. Maybe there should be some maximum to the amount of times you can save

[Doux]

Isn't the game also really easy, because people can save their progress before they do something risky and than load it when they fail.
People do decide to follow that strategy themselves, so if they want to play a harder game, they shouldn't do that. It's that easy. The same goes with cheats- they're there, but that doesn't mean its a developing fault because it can make the game easy..

[weaz]

Make it realistic

- Lower advantages/disadvantages of Kingdom power
- your happiness in towns is based more upon Kp than inns, different religion...

[King Karl]

Game is too easy i agree

[dearmad]

Face it, you all were ripped off. I imported my Engish version to NA very early on and sold it off after a month of play for more than I paid; it was clear early on that the game ****ed. I got out lucky, but this game was a total rip-off.

I still can't belive how Black Sea Studios bragged about their AI being good when i could kick its *** inside of 2 days.

Now, will they use any of us good players as beta testers? Nope. So boycott it is.

[Moobster]

Well what can i say, its fantastic that some people still make games like this. And it is a very good game... but it needs a new patch.

Please help your customers and you will see that many of us buy more of your games.
Or don't help... and we wont buy anything...

[Doge]

We have been asking for a second patch for over a year now. Two months ago they asked us for patience.

What do we get for patience? We get to listen to the sound of crickets.

In another two months, I wonder how far they will be in the release of a 2nd patch.

[Doge]

Face it, you all were ripped off. I imported my Engish version to NA very early on and sold it off after a month of play for more than I paid; it was clear early on that the game ****ed. I got out lucky, but this game was a total rip-off.


I still can't believe how Black Sea Studios bragged about their AI being good when i could kick its *** inside of 2 days.

Now, will they use any of us good players as beta testers? Nope. So boycott it is.

I will not buy any Sunflower/BSS games if there is no more patches. Not only that, I became a much wiser consumer. All my previous games were playable and difficult because they were developed and published by professionals (EA/Activision/FIRAXIS/Lucas Arts/etc). I was thinking of buying Diplomacy by Paradox Interactive. However, after visiting their boards, I find Diplomacy has the same AI problems as KoH (the AI is dumb). Paradox Interactive is now on the boycott list with Sunflower/BSS. When we consumers stop purchasing %&$#, these companies will be forced to test the games properly before they release them.

[Picotrain]

I would have to disagre with you there. Paradox are known for supporting thier games. They have done so in the past with their EU series and their Hearts of Iron series, as well as countless other games. In fact, they have made three patches since the game came out less than half a year ago! It's one thing to complain about the Sunflowers crowd, because frankly they deserve it, but to group Paradox, a fine group of developers, with them is uncalled for.

[Elvain]

Of course that it would be the best if the game will have no support - but only in one case: when the game does not need it.

But if there is wide consensus that the game definitely needs patch to be enjoyable, the situations is little different.

Case of KoH was this:
after the game was released, it was discovered that the testing was so poor that it definitely needs a patch very soon to eliminate flaws that should have been discovered if being tested right.
so the first patch was here not to improve the gameplay but just to eliminate basic bugs
the second patch should help to make the game enjoyable also after some time - tham means improve the gameplay=the AI

but it depends on the philosophy of the producer:
Sunflowers seems to care that their games won't have many bugs so when they are unable to find bugs in beta testing, they release a patch to eliminate them. And Since the bugs are fixed, the game (from this point of view) does not need any further support.
I see this very similar to the system in communist Czechoslovakia. Just to say that this system colapsed over 16 years ago and there was nobody (even the communist elites) defending it

and there is also another philosophy - try to keep the customers happy, make patches to make the game better and better.

It would require too many unpayed work, so I think some compromise could be ideal for both sides...

[Doux]

Elvain - the patch did not only remove many flaws/bugs, but also enhanced security greatly. So it was not the only reason ;)

I'm not happy with the situation either. It's pretty clear now that
-> We (the community, the fans) want a new patch, to improve the game, since we think this game is worth improving, which is in fact a great compliment.

->However, Black Sea Studios seem to be ignoring KoH now completely, are probably working on their next game. Which is alright with me - but they could at least [b]officially state so!

I can live with developers bringing out their games under time pressure and with, primairily, a lot of bugs, too, if only they patch them as soon as possible. That has happened. I think there cannot be displeasure there. BSS do have more to do, I can imagine, and have a right to displease the community -not that I think this is good for any company or good behaviour for any company- by giving no more support, but they should officially state so. That's what I think is basically wrong here.

[weaz]

Indeed, it isn't hard to give an official statement. And I think the community would understand the fact that BSS is very busy with other project. But we bought this product so we have the right to get information!

:angry: :angry: anti Sunflowers club :angry: :angry:

[Doge]

I would have to disagree with you there. Paradox are known for supporting their games.

They are known for supporting their games because they released bugged games and games with horrible AI.

Read the Diplomacy forum:

I would say yes [buy Diplomacy], when it's finally finished and the bugs are sorted out, but until then the game is a dead duck. It is a shame that a good/brilliant game like this was released before it was finished. Now a lot of players will buy the game find it's faults then never play it again.
Am very angry about this.

I was thinking of buying this game today, but I decided to see what people here said. I think I'll wait awhile.

Well, after reading all of these posts and the Gamespy review, I'm torn. It sounds like the latest patch has improved things somewhat, but the 1/2 star from Gamespy is a concern---their ratings usually match my own impressions, and 1/2 out of 5 is, well, really bad.

MP is not something I have time for---does anyone think there will be another patch to improve the solitaire AI?

I would wait [to buy Diplomacy] if I was you. I think all that you are waiting for is an AI patch.

Today, I would not advise anyone to buy Diplomacy. I know it might sound weird, considering the simple fact I bought it.

Situation is easy:

1/ The game AI is not well enough designed to give to single players a great gaming experience. After 2 or 3 games, even a beginner would win against the AI.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4921249#post4921249

Diplomacy's problems sounded all too familiar to me and I decided not to buy it, nor any other paradox game. If it were not for Sunflowers, I would wait and see if paradox patches the AI, but I learned from Sunflowers not to get held up on maybes (we might patch the AI, someday/etc).