City names vs. province names

[Finellach]

Yes thats definitely Ukranian coat of arms.

[Elewyn]

es, it is coat of arms of ukraine

And don't be affraid. Kiev is placed carefully on it's place, and this (http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1000.htm) is the reason why Kiev Rus doesn't go down to the Black sea

[Finellach]

Yes I have seen these maps. Still I haven't noticed a small mistake until now....it seem that the northern border of the Croatian Kingdom is a bit more to the South than it was actually.

The northern border of Croatia with Hungary was then as it is today (and for most part of history) on the River Drava(Drau in german)...don't know how it's called in english.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Some little changes made over here (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/) I hope it will satisfy you and everybody little more... those maps with years

Nice maps Elewyn..............as ALWAYS :go:

[Havoc]

Originally posted by Elewyn
es, it is coat of arms of ukraine

And don't be affraid. Kiev is placed carefully on it's place, and this (http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1000.htm) is the reason why Kiev Rus doesn't go down to the Black sea
i ment that it looks like it a little to far away but the map doesnt need to be correct to be perfect...(wow what does that mean :confused: )...I like the map any ways:go:

[kvzoltan]

Dear All,

I am unhappy that I joined this late the thread, but did not even know about the game a few days ago... Anyway. The point is:

Hungarians have a clear vision of the division of their country even if this was not always and for every part of the country specified in official scripts:

Croatia, and around, OK. Transylvania, OK (I would name the capital Kolozsvar, as it was called Kolozsvár by the Hungarians). Pannonia is alright, capital Pécs, too. (Would you call Kolozsvár Klausenburg, you should call Pécs Fünfkirchen - and slowly every gamer would think there is no such country as Hungary as all names are German :-) )

Esztergom, Buda and Székesfehérvár were the three towns where the siege of the Hungarian Kings 'cycled' during the Middle Ages. You choose whichever you want - I can easily agree with your choice of Esztergom.

OK, that's what you also have more or less known. The problem is the rest two territories:
the one above Pannonia and Esztergom up to Poland. Well this territory was always called Hungarian Highland (Felvidék). Please, mark this and try to build it into you map. Its capital was historically Pozsony. (There was never ever a thing like Carpathia - except perhaps in some juicy story of Drakula - and we jump to Transylvania, which is not to be mixed with the Felvidék.) (Kassa - Košice in nowadays' Slovakish - was important but not that much as Pozsony.)
and the other territory between Pannonia and Transylvania up to the Felvidék. Well, this was always the Hungarian Plains or the Puszta or the Alföld (Plains) and it is also currently called the latter one. Hungarian would best identify it as Alföld, but the others names - you choose as you want. We have a problem with the capital. I don't really know what there was in a year like 1100... :-(

But this was the real point of time to get my book in my hands: Donald Matthew: Atlas of the Medieval Europe from the editor Equinox (Oxford) Ltd. 1983! So, the possible names are four, and not to take it long, I say to you, best choice is Nagyvárad. If you want my explanation, ask for it, and you'll get it ;-)

This is how correctly and without distorture you can represent the Medieval Hungary.

Some remarks: please, be careful about Hungary as its larger part was distributed amongst the surrounding coutries after the First World War, and if you misrepresent the parts, the gamers from the neighbouring countries will get the impression more things belong to them than they got - many reflect namely the situation created in the XX. century back to the Medieval Ages, and think it was already those time like it is now. This way of thinking hurts Hungarians most, and this is the reason for those many posts lacking indulgence.
The other remark is that to the person being impatient why the Hungarian have those strange writing style and names, I can simply say that Hungarian is a language - that's all. Please, nobody hate a language for the reason being not familiar for him: beleive me, for Hungarians (and to my mind also for Slavic peoples, but their members correct me if I am wrong) the Viking names are not less strange. I don't hate Vikings, though ;-)

I would be happy, if you would consider my points. Thank you for your attention and patient reading! :cheers: :cheers:

[timurlenk]

i try to sum up:

elewyn suggested:

73Dalmatia-Zadar
74Croatia-Zagreb
75Slavonia-Djakovo
76Vojvodina-Severin

77Transylvania-Klausenburg
78Hungaria-Esztergom
79Carpathia-Kosice
80Pannonia-Pécs


you suggest:

73Dalmatia-Zadar
74Croatia-Zagreb
75Slavonia-Djakovo
76Vojvodina-Severin

77Transylvania-Kolozsvár (btw, klausenburg was founded by german (saxon) settlers, coz of that the german name)
78Hungaria-Esztergom
79Felvidék-Pozsony
80Pannonia-Pécs
additional: 80,5Alföld-Nagyvárad (between pannonia and transylvania)


correct?





many reflect namely the situation created in the XX. century back to the Medieval Ages, and think it was already those time like it is now. This way of thinking hurts Hungarians most, and this is the reason for those many posts lacking indulgence.

hoho. as austrian im already happy when people know that there are no kangaroos in austria :bday:

no need to be hurt - time always change things :cheers:

[kvzoltan]

Thank you, Timurlenk!

Yes, your list is correct.

I, somehow, have the feeling that Buda would indeed be a little better choice then Esztergom, but anyway...

About Kolozsvár: many cities all around Europe were founded by settlers who were not part of the later nation declaring the subject country as its own. Paris is call Paris, Köln is Köln, etc. Those German settlers were invited by the Hungarian kings during several centuries with allowances for settling in pre-defined territories of Hungary. They then fouded a municipality in Hungary, not a Germany, where they were asked to go.

Even is there are bi-lingual name shields / plates for many municipality in Karinthia, when you are asked what the official-official name of them is, you quote their Austrian-German name, don't you ;-)

Best in considerations of this kind is that it would be utterly useless for a person from the Medieval Ages :-)

Finally, as siege of the Sovereigns of Transylvania, Kolozsvár was the siege of Hungarian Governors, and I find it odd to think they ruled from a German city. Although the Saxons lived, of course, there. And many other nationalities shared Transylvania. Clear

[Elewyn]

thanks, kvoltan, for your notes.

I'm gonna change it almost as you want. I think that Poszony is what is now the capital of Slovakia, called now Bratislava, before XXcentury it was called Pressburg.

I don't want to look like sbdy who's trying to put all hungarian names of, but as far as I know, Transylvania was setteled by Saxins-Germans and there was very strong minority of Germans, if those towns were not "only-German" (Czech name of Transylvania is Sedmihradsko, what mean "land of 7 castles", and it came from 7german castles-cities). IMO it's also the case of Pressburg/Poszony/Bratislava, but I'm not sure.

So in case of Pressburg/Poszony/Brarislava and Klausenburg/Kolosvár/Cluj I would prefere "neutral" - German names which do not belong to no side, neither Hungarian, nor Slovakian/Romanian instead of national names which may evoke very negative emotions in oposite side

So I suggest:
77 Transylvania-Klausenburg(I explained why)
78 Alföld-Buda
79 Felvidék-Pressburg (Or maybe "Upper Hungary"with Pressburg as capital. I will prefere the second one...)
80 Pannonia-Pécs

as you can see it here (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?s=&postid=15725#post15725)

[Elewyn]

ehm...

here (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt69ea7ce72cec9b2d.jpg) are all realms/provinces I was able to find untill now.

I missed one and I think it must be somewhere in Germany or Sweden because castles were less visible. :)

*EDIT* due to this screenshot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/knightsofhonor/screens.html?page=131) I found also the last missing one. It's in Germany, really as I expected, little above 102, so it's Bavaria IMO :hello:

Thanks, Henrik for showing hose wonderfull screnshots!!

and also some of my hopes came true: Lebanon (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/knightsofhonor/screens.html?page=124) f.e.
Just the castle can be named... wait fore the list :) */EDIT*

End of old times and beggining of new.
List of 168 provinces of KoH (Some of them already known with everything, some not):

WESTERN EUROPE(34):
1 Leinster*-Dublin
2 Munster*-Cork
3 Ulster*-Derry
4 Highlands*-Inverness
5 Lothian*-Dunedin (Edinburgh)
6 York*-York
7 Mercia-Lincoln
8 Anglia*-London
9 Wessex/Kent-Cantenbury
10 Wales*(Cymru)-Caernarvon
11 Cornwall*-Exeter
12 Flandre*(Vlaanderen/Flandre)-Brugge
13 Champagne-Reims
14 Francia-Paris
15 Normandy*(Normandie)-Rouen
16 Brittany*(Bretagne)-Rennes
17 Anjou*-Angers
18 Acquitaine*-Bordeaux
19 Auvergne-Clermont
20 Burgundy*(Bourgogne)-Dijon*
21 Provence*-Arles
22 Languedoc*-Tolouse
23 Aragon*-Barcelona
24 Navarra*-Pamplona
25 Castilia(Castilla)-Burgos
26 Leon*-Leon
27 Galicia or Asturia-Santiago
28 Portugal*-Lisaboa(Lisbon)
29 Toledo-Toledo
30 Valencia-Valencia
31 Andalucia-Cordoba
32 Granada

AFRICA(16):
33 Tangier
34 Fez
35 Morocco-Marakesch*
36 Sijilmassa
37 Oran
38 WestSahara*-Figuig* oasa
39 EastSahara*-Wargla
40 Alger-Al Djazair*
41 Tunisia-Tunis
42 WestTripolitana-Jerba
43 Tripoli*
44 EastTripolitana-???
45 Barka-Cyrene
46 Siva
47 Alexandria(Al Isqandriah)
48 Egypt-Cairo*(Al Qairah)

ASIA (19):
49 Sinai
50 Palestine-Jerusalem
51 Arabia*-Tebuk*
52 Damascena-Damascus(Dimashq)
53 Lebanon-Acre/Tripoli
54 Syria-Aleppo
55 Antioch*-Antiocheia*
56 Kurdistan-Amida?/Edessa?
57 Armenia-Ani
58 Georgia-Suchumi
59 Cappadoccia-Malatya
60 Trabzonide-Trabzon
61 Anatolia-Ankara
62 Kilikia-Tarsus
63 Cyprus*-Leukosia
64 Attaleia
65 Konya-Ikonion
66 Nicaea
67 Smyrna

BALKAN AND HUNGARY:
68 Crete*-Iraklis*
69 Achaia-Athens(Athinai)
70 Solun-Thesaloniki
71 Thrace-Constantinopolis(Constantinople)
72 Dobrudzha*-Karvuna*
73 Wallachia or Dacia*-Bucharest(Bucuresti)
74 Moesia*-Turnov*
75 Bdin*-Bdin*
76 Macedonia(Macedonija)-Ochrid*(Ohrid)
77 Epir-Dyrrhachion(Dürës/Drac)
78 Zeta*-Kotor or Cattaro
79 Rashka(Raška[Rashka]) or Serbia(Srbija)-Beograd(Belgrade)
80 Bosnia(Bosna)-Sarajevo*
81 Vojvodina-Sirmium
82 Transylvania*-Klausenburg(Cluj/Kolozsvár)*
83 Upper Hungary-Kaschau(Kosice/Kassa)
84 Kalocsa
85 Alföld-Buda
86 Panonnia-Pécs
87 Croatia(Hrvatska)-Gradec or Zagreb
88 Dalmatia*(Dalmacija)-Zadar

ITALY(11):
89 Apulia-Bari
90 Sicily*(Sicilia)-Palermo
91 Sardiny(Sardegna)-Cagliari
92 Corsica-Ajaccio
93 Naples(Napolitana)-Napoli
94 Roma (Rome)
95 Tuscany(Toscana)-Pisa
96 Liguria-Genoa*
97 Savoia-Torino(Turin)
98 Lombardy*(Lombardia)-Milan
99 Venetia-Venezia(Venice)

CENTRAL EUROPE(21):
100 Carinthia(Kärtnen)-St.Veit
101 Austria*(Östereich)-Wien(Vienna)
102 Tyrolia(Tirol)-Innsbruck
103 Helvetia*(Schwytz)-Bern
104 Alsace/Elssas-Strassbourg/Strassburg
105 Pfalz-Mainz(Mayence)
106 Lorraine(Lothringen)-Köln(Cologne)
107 Friesland-Utrecht
108 Saxony*(Sachsen)-Bremen
109 Nassau
110 Swabia(Schwaben)-Ulm
111 Franconia(Franken?)-Frankfurt
112 Mecklenburg*
113 Brandenburg*
114 Bohemia*(Cechy)-Praha(Prague)
115 Moravia*(Morava)-Olomouc
116 Krakow
117 Mazovia(Mazowiecko)-Warszawa(Warsaw)
118 Polonia(Polska)-Poznan
119 Silesia(Slezsko,Slask?)-Wroclaw
120 Pomerania*(Pomorze)-Gdansk or Szczieczin

BALTIC REGION (17):
121 Prussia*(Prusija)-Marienburg
122 Grodno
123 Lithuania(Lietuva)-Vilnius*
124 Samogitia(Zemaitija)-Medvegalis
125 Livonia-Riga
126 Estonia-Talinn
127 Jutland
128 Saeland-Odense
129 Skaane-Lund
130 Götaland-Kalmar
131Oslo
132 Stavanger or Bergen
133 Bergen/Nidaros=Trondheim
134 Svealand-Uppsala
135 Norrland-Östersund
136 Finland*(Suomi)-Turku
137 Nyland-Wiborg

EASTERN EUROPE(23):
138 Novgodod
139 Jaroslavl
140 Karelia-Kirilov
141 Nizhnyj Novgorod(Niznij Novgorod)
142 Suzdal
143 Kazan
144 Vladimir
145 Rostov
146 Tver
147 Moscow(Moskva)
148 Polotsk*
149 Smolensk
150 Volhyn-Lutzk
151 Galicia(Galicz/Halicz)-Halicz
152 Podole-Kamenec Podolskij
153 Zhytomir
154 Kiiv (Kiev)
155 Moldova-Suceava
156 Ukraine/Jedisan-Odessa
157 Perjeslavl
158 Tula
159 Riazan
160 Murom
161 Voronez
162 Sarai
163 Astrakhan?
164 Azov
165 Donetsk
166 Crimea*-Cherson
167 Kuban-Altariga

168 Bavaria*(Bayern)-Regensburg

Where only one name is, province is called the same like it's capital. Red names are local ones (if diferent than english)


And here is a map (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt69ea7ce72cec9b2d.jpg) which shows you numbers and realms (168 is north of 102 and west of 114)

[Finellach]

I like!!!! :D :p

Fantastic work Elewyn. :go: :cheers:

[Elewyn]

my list is finalized :) here (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?s=&postid=26867#post26867)

any comments? changes wanted etc?

[Vytis]

So it's part english part native names. Was there any indication on what devs are gonna use?
[Personally I'd rather see native names.]

btw, #162 Saratov (http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/7138/text_6.htm) was founded only in 1590.

[Elewyn]

I'd prefere natives too. Those names which are already shown by devs will have "*" with them, so you'll see what they prefere.btw, #162 Saratov (http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/7138/text_6.htm) was founded only in 1590. I didn't know the exact date, but I was affraid it is as it is. But... do you have any better idea?

If not, I have: Sarai, what is close to Saratov and Volgograd(Stalingrad) and it seems that it already existed in 1300

[Vytis]

Sarai is a pretty good choice.

[Boleslaus the Great]

Originally posted by Elewyn
here (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt69ea7ce72cec9b2d.jpg) are all realms/provinces I was able to find untill now.
Hey, How did you get that map. Do you have some special connections to the devs? Where did you found that?

[Angryminer]

He created it himself.

Angryminer

[Elewyn]

not at all. :blush: it's just zoomed minimap from screenshot edited a little :)

[Gorgoroth]

Elewyn is a true fan, that mini map is the proof! :cool:

[Henrik]

yeahhh, Elewyn is a real fanboy of this game :D , but i must admit that he did a hell of a job - as he always seem to do :go:

Btw, looking at Elewyns map i can see that the devs have included the island of Funen on that one - eventhoug it small, but on this map (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//english/screenshot.php?screenshot=0125&%20all=0125|0124|0123|0122|0121|0120|0119|0118|011 7) they haven't seemed to bother with drawing it ! :(

I'll guess it's okay, but to me it looks very strange....