City names vs. province names

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Thanx Henrik. I hope you'll agree with:
Skane-Lund
Jutland-Viborg
Sjaeland-Odense(Zealand is also in the Netherlands and this dutch one is known more, as I think)


Not quite - ie. sjaelland/Zealand is the island where Roskilde and Copenhagen is and the island of Funen is where Odense is, so to put in a little more scematic way:

Jutland: Viborg
Funen: Odense
Sjaelland/Zealand: Roskilde & Copenhagen
Skane: Lund
Just let me know if you need anything :)

[Elewyn]

Not quite - ie. sjaelland/Zealand is the island where Roskilde and Copenhagen is and the island of Funen is where Odense is, so to put in a little more scematic way:

Jutland: Viborg
Funen: Odense
Sjaelland/Zealand: Roskilde & Copenhagen
Skane: Lund
Just let me know if you need anything :)
OK, so then I should ask you what was overal most important city from those 3? Odense, Copenhagen or Roskilde? Even in my suggestion this realm is one of smallest (when Funen and Sjaelland are "united" into one island) and I don't know if Fujin will put those islands together as realm into game. When Funen and Sjaelland divided, Denmark will have only 2realms- Skane and Jutland.
@Elewyn: For which Time is your List?
Realms and realm capitals don't change in entry periods. So this is for carolingian Europe, as for high medieval Europe as for late, what is IMO since 1300.

I know you will say that there was no Switzerland before 13th century, but I guess that devs want it, so it's put out from Swabia and Upper Burgundy, from where Switzerland came from.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Elewyn
OK, so then I should ask you what was overal most important city from those 3? Odense, Copenhagen or Roskilde? Even in my suggestion this realm is one of smallest (when Funen and Sjaelland are "united" into one island) and I don't know if Fujin will put those islands together as realm into game. When Funen and Sjaelland divided, Denmark will have only 2realms- Skane and Jutland.

If i had to choose i would say that Roskilde (http://www.visitroskilde.com/historieuk.htm)would be the one to choose, coz this was the first "capital" in Denmark i believe - the city of Copenhagen was founded at a later time, but i also like to know what you think :)

[Elewyn]

If i had to choose i would say that Roskilde (http://www.visitroskilde.com/historieuk.htm)would be the one to choose, coz this was the first "capital" in Denmark i believe - the city of Copenhagen was founded at a later time, but i also like to know what you think :) I prefere Roskilde too. From what I know about Denmark, Roskilde was oldest capital adn some maps proved it. So I'm gonna change it again

Although we have both territory name and town name supported by the engine, there IS an issue about the naming of places. Please, be patient a bit more (I know, I know you hear that too often) and we will explain how it is after we finish polishing the game in this area.
I'm sorry for bothering again with my impatience. But. Do you have any idea when it will be? Like in week or two; untill a month; more than a month?

AND ONCE AGAIN.
THANKS

[Jorghan]

No, I don't think Vyborg is okay. The spelling doesn't make sense in Swedish, and I doubt it makes sense in Finnish either. Perhaps you should go for Turku instead (or Åbo in Swedish), since it has Finlands oldest castle and Cathedral, even if it didn't exist during any but the latest ages. But then again, it's the same problem as with Norrland, there really wasn't anything but villages there back then.

[Siena]

hi guys,

nice work on names and maps, Elewyn.

I just have a few comments. Mostly on Lithuania, since that is what I know best :)
108 - Volhynia - Luck - I think the town was called Lutzk or Luzk

Also, I am not sure if province assignment to countries mean anything, but ....

in 1350 - Lithuania most likely had Kiev, although I do not remember about Chernigov or Pereslavl.
Argument about Kiev is very convincingly stated in Rowell's book "Lithuania Ascending". He says that Grand Duke Gediminas took it in 1322 - and although he did not rule it directly - he put his brother there.

in 1400 - Lithuania and Poland was not one state. They became one state only in 1569 - Liublin union.
in 1400 Lithuania was ruled by Vytautas the Great - cousin of the king of Poland. Vytautas was the Grand Duke of Lithuania, and although he pledged a personal allegiance to his cousin - there was nothing else that bound the realms.

Anyway, all I wanted to say, that it would be a shame if Lithuania was not playable in Late period, since that was the high period of its expansion. Lithuania held - in games provinces - Chernigov, Pereslavl, Smolensk, Kiev, Ukraine, Polotsk, Volhynia, Lithuania, Samogitia.
Samogitia was temporarily given to Teutonic Order in the beginning of 1400s, but never controled by them.

[Elewyn]

Thanks, Siena. I'll change it.

Btw, be welcome here :)

[Henrik]

yeahh, Siena - one really get the impression that you seem to know quite a lot about this subject :)

[Vajk]

Few things about your list Elewyn regarding Hungary. We already know that Duda is in the game therefore you should use it on your list maybe swich it with Esztergom! Second Transylvania capitol should be Kolozsvar (as it was) instead of the modern Romanian Cluj just my 2 cent! I would also make Carpathia capitol Pozsony if you ask me!
I personaly not happy with the Hungarian provinces (what I saw so far from the Dev. on the screenshots) but hey it's not my game!

Thanks!

[Elewyn]

Few things about your list Elewyn regarding Hungary. We already know that Duda is in the game therefore you should use it on your list maybe swich it with Esztergom! Second Transylvania capitol should be Kolozsvar (as it was) instead of the modern Romanian Cluj just my 2 cent! I would also make Carpathia capitol Pozsony if you ask me!
I personaly not happy with the Hungarian provinces (what I saw so far from the Dev. on the screenshots) but hey it's not my game! I will appreciate any advice how to divide Hungarian kingdom into realms.
It's easy to say "I am not happy with the stay you showed me"
Show me how to divide Hungary, because only known provinces in the size of KoH realms are Transylvania and provinces of croatian kingdom: Slavonia and Croatia, which were parts of Hungary. The rest is about imagination of the creator.
My maps are not copy of game maps, but an atempt for advice them. I used Esztergom, because I thought it was hungarian capital imn midleage.
If you have any idea how to better divide area of "my realms" of Esztergom, Panonia and Caprpathia into 3 other realms, show me and I'll be happy.

You know KoH is not your game. But when you complain about something, try to show another way. Then there is a possibility you'll like the game more and you won't be angry about hungarian realms.

Nothing personal, but your behaviour sometimes is not far from our Romanian mates you complained.. except strictly oposite opinoins.

Peace


PS: Explanation for @Siena. I made Poland and Lithuania one state for year 1400 because of I know about Polonian-Lithuanian union since 1386. I don't know much about it, so I thought it was personal union, so I made the same like with Kalmar union on the North. Now it's already changed. :)

[Frank Fay]

I personaly not happy with the Hungarian provinces

What is wrong with them ?

[Elewyn]

What is wrong with them ?
You know, Hungaria never had provinces like this, nor like in my map suggestions. They had only far smaller counties.
East(Transylvania) and south (Severin, Vojvodina, Slavonia and Croatia) are clear, because they were provinces, but region of todays Hungary and Slovakia never had provinces like this.

It's impossible to do it right, as far as I know :(

there are no "lands" like in Poland, HRE, France.. like in the rest of Europe. It is simply Hungary :(
Second Transylvania capitol should be Kolozsvar (as it was) instead of the modern Romanian Cluj just my 2 cent! I would also make Carpathia capitol Pozsony if you ask me!

Hey!!! You're even worse than Alex is!!!!

Kolozsvar is Cluj, in middle ages it was town founded by German settlers and was called Klausenburg in german, so i changed it to Klausenburg which is the most correct version imo!!!

Then I've found that Pozsony is todays Bratislava, medieval Presssburg (german colonists' name), which is not in the area of realm Carpathia I suggested. That's why I've chosen Kossice (I guess everyone except you can understand, but fory it's Kassa, like your Esztergom is Ostrzihom in czech, but I try to be understandable)

Not everyone has maps where magyar names are given. So TODAY more people (all except Hungarians-except Gorgoroth) know where Cluj is than where Kolozsvár is.

Btw, we all agreed here that town names should be in original names of major population of the region. Even if Transylvania was part of kingdom of Hungary, major population were Wallachs(by number) and Germans (by political power until turkish wars)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, here's the list. I hope it's OK (*edit* for better understanding I'll give you english names where possible)

1 Ulster - Derry
2 Connaught - Dublin
3 Leinster - Cork
4 Highlands - Inverness
5 Edinburgh - Edinburgh
6 York - York
7 Mercia - Lincoln
8 Anglia - London
9 Kent - Cantenbury
10 Cornwall - Exeter
11 Wales - Caernarvon
12 Flandres - Brugge
13 Champagne - Reims
14 Ille-de-France - Paris
15 Normandie - Rouen
16 Bretagne - Rennes
17 Anjou - Angers
18 Aquitaine - Bordeaux
19 Auvergne - Clermont
20 Bourgogne - Dijon
21 Tolouse - Tolouse
22 Aragón - Barcelona
23 Navarra - Pamplona
24 Castillia - Burgos
25 León - León
26 Portugal - Lisboa (Lisbon)
27 Toledo - Toledo
28 Valencía - Valencía
29 Granada - Granada
30 Andalucía - Cordóba
31 Provence - Arles
32 Savoie - Torino (Turin)
33 Lombardia - Milano (Milan)
34 Venetia - Venezia (Venice)
35 Genoa - Genova
36 Toscana - Pisa
37 Roma - Roma
38 Corse - Ajaccio
39 Sardegna - Cagliari
40 Napoli - Napoli (Naples)
41 Apulia - Bari
42 Sicilia - Palermo
43 Croatia - Zagreb
44 Dalmatia - Zadar
45 Bosnia - Sarajevo
46 Slavonia - Djakovo
47 Vojvodina - Severin
48 Serbia - Beograd (Belgrade)
49 Epiros - Dyrrhachion (Drac, Durrës)
50 Hellas - Athína (Athens)
51 Solun - Thesaloniki (Solun)
52 Macedonia - Ochrid
53 Vidin - Vidin
54 Walachia - Bucuresti (Bucharest)
55 Dobrudja - Karvuna
56 Bulgaria - Tarnovo
57 Thracia - Constantinopolis (Constantinople)
58 Morroco - Tanger
59 Ouahran - Ouahran
60 Algers - Algers
61 Tunis - Tunis
62 Tripolitana - Tripolis
63 Barka - Cyrene
64 Alexandria - Alexandria
65 Egypt - Kairah (Cairo)
66 Palestine - Jerusalem
67 Syria - Dimashq (Damascus)
68 Antioch - Antiocheia (Antakya)
69 Mosul - Mosul
70 Cappadocia - Malatya
71 Anatolia - Ankara
72 Kilikia - Tarsus
73 Smyrna - Smyrna
74 Cyprus - Leukosia
75 Krete - Iraklion
76 Nicaea - Nicaea
77 Trabzonide - Trabzon/Trapezunt
78 Armenia - Ani
79 Georgia - Suchumi
80 Kuban - Phangoreia
81 Azov - Azov
82 Perjeslawl - Perjeslawl
83 Krym - Cherson
84 Ukraine - Odessa
85 Moldova - Suceava
86 Transylvania - Klausenburg (Cluj/Kolozsvár)
87 Hungaria - Esztergom
88 Carpathia - Kossice
89 Pannonia - Pécs
90 Styria - Graz
91 Austria - Wien (Wienna)
92 Moravia - Olomouc
93 Bohemia - Praha (Prague)
94 Bavaria - Regensburg
95 Schwytz - Luzern
96 Swabia - Strassbourg
97 Lorraine - Köln/Cologne
98 Frisia - Utrecht
99 Saxony - Bremen
100 Franconia - Mainz (Mayence)
101 Meissen - Meissen
102 Brandenburg - Brandenburg
103 Pomerania - Gdansk
104 Polonia - Poznan
105 Silesia - Wroclaw
106 Cracovia - Krakow
107 Galicia - Halicz
108 Volhynia - Luzk (Lutzk)
109 Mazovia - Warszawa (Warsaw)
110 Prussia - Marienburg
111 Samogitia - Medvegalis
112 Curonia - Mitau
113 Lithuania - Vilnius
114 Polotsk - Polotsk
115 Kiev - Kijiv (Kiev)
116 Chernigov - Chernigov
117 Riazan - Riazan
118 Smolensk - Smolensk
119 Moscovia - Moskva (Moscow)
120 Novgorod - Novgorod
121 Livonia - Riga
122 Estonia - Talinn
123 Finland - Viborg
124 Turku - Turku
125 Norrland - Östersund
126 Svealand - Uppsala
127 Götaland - Kalmar
128 Skaane - Lund
129 Sjealand - Odense
130 Jutland - Viborg
131 Oslo - Oslo
132 Bergen - Bergen
133 Nidaros - Nidaros (Trondheim)

PS: those realms you can see on map called "evidence" here (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/)

[Kuno of Gersenau]

Great work Elewyn, but are you sure that you haven't too much time...:D

no seriousli: Its great! :cheers:

[Siena]

Thanks a lot Elewyn. I am happy if I can help :)

There was a marriage deal in 1386 between Polish nobles and Grand Duke of Lithuania Jogaila (thats original Lithuanian name; also called Jagiello - in Polish, later became king Wladislav of Poland). So the deal was that he will "bind Lithuania to Polish crown", make Lithuania christian, and use his forces to get lost Polish lands back, if he gets to marry Polish princess and thus become king of Poland.

I don't want to start telling about all circumstances, because it will be a long story.
Anyway, the point is, that although Jogaila, after becoming king of Poland - actually attempted to rule Lithuania from Poland - that did not work out. Lithuanian and Russian nobles were too proud (and who could blame them, if you remember that by that point in time - Lithuania had had a long period of succesfull expansion).
So Jogaila's cousin Vytautas - who was exceptionally capable politician and leader - had used the opportunity and grabbed the power in Lithuania- eventually declaring himself Grand Duke of Lithuania in 1392 or so.
Jogaila had to recognise that and made a deal with Vytautas, that recognised Vytautas as Grand Duke of Lithuania, in exchange for the promise that after his death Lithuania would return to Jogaila's descendants.
Vytautas died in 1430. But Lithuania remained a separate country, until it entered a union with Poland in 1569. And even then - it was not a province, but a separate state with separate written laws, army, money and foreign policy.

To make the point short - Lithuania was a completely separate state from Poland in 1400s. There was a lot of tensions among the countries and sometimes there were conflicts, they fought separate wars with separate goals. The relationship was more of military alliance than anything else.
The countries had the common ruler from about 1441, but it was also a complicated affair, as Lithuanian nobles would chose a Grand Duke, and Polish nobles would follow by declaring the same guy their king. After which the king would try to spend time in both countries, but evetually would go to Poland, and Lithuania would govern itself.

All right, and to wrap it up :) - it would be very very very far from the truth to make one country of Lithuania and Poland in 1400s. Because it was not so.
:) ok, done :)

Elewyn, what is the reason for Curronian province? Curronians were a powerful baltic tribe, but their fate was same as other Livonian tribes. So, if you would ever need to reduce the number of provinces, you could just join Curronia (112) to Livonia (121), in my opinion.
Unless there is a gameplay reason, that I don't know about...

Henrik, I have read a lot about medieval Lithuanian history, since that always interested me.

Sorry for a long post.

[Vajk]

@Elewyn
Hey calm down mate you don't have to call names right a way. I'm unhappy with the REAL Dev. or call it the game map NOT YOURS, so chill Okay! Second for your info in the middle ages neither germans or romanians were more populous than hungarians in Transylvania. Well about the names you do what you like I can't care less I just thought because it was part of the Hungarian kingdom after all you want to know the real names that's all! Yes indeed it is hard to cut up Hungary if you don't want to go down to the countie level! I think you did a pretty good job with your map but I like to see the real game map from the Dev. so we can chew it over with them the people who getting pay for to take crap from guy like me!

@Frank Fay
Well mainly I'm unhappy with the look and the size of the Hungarian Kingdom map. Now I know that the game is not done yet however what I saw so far from screenshots the Hungarian realm looks a little bit off compare to the real thing!
http://www.historicaltextarchive.com/hungary/hu15.gif
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/eceurope/haxhungary.html

Again my apology to all if I offended you but I call it constructive criticism. I'm trying to give you the Hungarian point of view that's all. Take it or leave it is up to you! Thank you!

[Angryminer]

On the screenshots you see the map how it is after some hours of playing.
During that time borders change...

Angryminer

[Elewyn]

I should apologize too. Perhaps I was too impulsive, it was because you used the same town like me, but saying that your is more correct. But I think that on new screenshots shape of Hungary is far more right and not far from historical correctness.

Great work, guys

I can see there are also some new provinces in HRE like Tyrolia and Salzburg what is very pleasant :) only with that little detail that Tyrolia should be south of Salzburg, Bavaria close to Bohemia (neighbours) and divide Franconia by creating Thuringia in eastern part.

Btw, back to theme of this thread. There's still some hope left with diferent town and province names. Or not? Austria is still Austria also in the town of Austria

[Angryminer]

Frujin once said that the engine should be able to destinct between province-name and towns, but that this still needs some work.

Don't forget: You're watching a pre-release-version.

Angryminer

Edit:
Found it in this thread ;) ...
"Although we have both territory name and town name supported by the engine, there IS an issue about the naming of places. Please, be patient a bit more (I know, I know you hear that too often) and we will explain how it is after we finish polishing the game in this area."

[thrandaër]

Originally posted by Vajk
Few things about your list Elewyn regarding Hungary. We already know that Duda is in the game therefore you should use it on your list maybe swich it with Esztergom! Second Transylvania capitol should be Kolozsvar (as it was) instead of the modern Romanian Cluj just my 2 cent! I would also make Carpathia capitol Pozsony if you ask me!
I personaly not happy with the Hungarian provinces (what I saw so far from the Dev. on the screenshots) but hey it's not my game!

Thanks!

***

Hullo,
I as an archaeologist have a quite problem with the Magyars all the time, when there is a non-hungarian archaeological culture and it's name is accepted in the whole world, the Magyars have their own different name and nobody knows what they speak/write about...

I suppose that it should be used CLUJ instead of Kolozsvár, same as Bratislava instead of Pozsony and so on...
not everybody of us can speak Magyar-language and nor we have maps with place-names given in Hungarian, when I write about Hungarian cities such as Pät'kostolie, Stolic^ný Belehrad, Mis^kovec and so on, do you know what are they in Magyar or you have to look it up, eh?

If you want to speak about the Slovak capital you certainly can speak about Pressburg, Istropolis, Pozsony, Pres^porok, but only Bratislava is found on the map!

but, nothing I sad was meant in bad or malice

p.s. Do not think I do not like the Magyars, I (as a Slovak) really do like them , mostly their wine, saussages and gulyás (and it is said that the girls are there pretty...) so :cheers:

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Siena
Henrik, I have read a lot about medieval Lithuanian history, since that always interested me.

Yeaahh , it's nice that we have an "expert" on this matter on the board :)
Originally posted by Siena
Sorry for a long post.
Don't be ! - as long as it's relevant and you try to make a point, i don't think that anyone would hold it against you :eek:, so POST AAAWWWAAAYYYY :)