City names vs. province names

[Elewyn]

thanks

Kolozsvár is called Klaussenburg, what you can also see at some screenshot.

To call some region "Royal dominions would be great, but it's impossible in game where many "royal dominions" were spited all around Europe. I hoped you have also another callings for those regions.

[kvzoltan]

Correct Elewyn
I will try to find a correct name for it, but I can't tell it right now.
(Buda - Esztergom?) tell later
Thank you, Elewyn!

[Finellach]

I was looking at that map you made Elewyn and it seems to me that Slavonia would be much more appropriate name for the province #86(Panonnia). The capital should remain the same (Pecs).

What do you think?

[kvzoltan]

Slavonia is North Croatia. Pannonia is West Hungary
I know the currently also existing ideas where Slovakia expands till the Lake Balaton from the North as Great-Moravia and Serbs and Croates get the territory till the Lake Balaton from the South, while Rumania reaches out till the Danube from the East, but the game will be more fun and sens with spures of a country named Hungary on it.
Please, help me avoid nationalist-like remarks :-D

[Finellach]

Edit:

Pannonia is a name for roman province that spread from Danube in the north to Sava in the south and border with Bosnia which belonged to the province of Dalmatia. Pannonia also spread from Danube in East(Sirmium, Bacska) and to the West all the way to Austria.

You implications kzvoltan are rude and I don't like them. Pannonia is not just hungarian province. It consists of Slavonia, soutwestern parts of Hungary and Vojvodina(Sirmium, Bacska).

In medieval times there was no title of "Pannonia". But the title 'Kingdom of Slavonia' did existed and was created by Croato-Hungarian Kings as you probably know. My opinion is that Slavonia would be much better name. In any case it would belong to Hungary so you can be rest assured....:rolleyes:

[Elewyn]

i think pannonia is much better for this issue.
Slavonia is quite smaller area and it covers only south part of thet realm, and pannonia as you described means much larger area. Also this area seems to be some kind of constant hungarian realm. Calling it Slavonia would be senseless. IMO

[kvzoltan]

If you take the first medieval poete in Hungary who was also educated in Italian University, and became high rank officer of the Church, called Janus Pannonius, his poem about the spread of printed literature in Hungary, he was not very much aware of your stand point.

Your view of the "King of Hungary, Croatia and Slavonia"... etc. is something like "King of Navarre" and also by chance, King of France - unimportantly.

Slavonia is good and important, but there no better way to distroy the esteem of a country than overestimate it over even more important ones.

Do we quarrel about this? We shouldn't. You may, please, answer. I will not put any post related to this side branch (Slavonia / Hungary) of the topic

[kvzoltan]

My rude lines are, of course, brutal and unnecassary replication to Finellach's rejection

[Finellach]

@kvzoltan: you will excuse me if I admit that I don't know what are you trying to say.
Also my suggestion was only that - a small suggestion. Your rude lines are were unnecessary and extremly rude. Not to mention extremly nationalistic.

@Elewyn: yes I agree. It seems that Pannonia is the whole area of Slavonia and southern Hungary. Still I would prefer the name Slavonia from subjective reasons. Ah well...I hope we will be able to change that personally. ;)

[Elewyn]

calling it slavonia will be far more inacurate than calling Upper Hungary (or possible Carpathia) as Slovakia. Pannonia was whole western part of Hungary+Slavonia (south and west of Danube, it is not only southern Hungary :))

[Finellach]

Pannonia is a whole region from Sirmium(Vojvodina) all the way to Austria. It's not just Hungary you know....

Btw. there was no such thing as Pannonia in medieval times.
Not to mention that most of what is the #86 region is actually Slavonia thus IMO far more better name would be - Slavonia.

[Elewyn]

I defined only eastern and northern border of Pannonia (only which I know). I just disagreed with definition "south hungary" when north border of Hungary is Danube :)

[Finellach]

It's not south Hungary, but south-western Hungary....the area around the river Drau ;)

Look at the province. It's most what is today Slavonia and Sirmium...once called Kingdom of Slavonia.

[kvzoltan]

Finallach, you make me break my word not to post to the topic. You write you don't understand what I want to say, and continue saying that Pannonia was not a name used in medieval times.

Actually, as Beograd was Hungarian city called Nándorfehérvár, and Vojvodina is not else than Újvidék, still populated by a large Hungarian population, your agggressive, Balkan-style struggling to make Slavonia be bigger than the territory from Buda to Wienerneustadt, and from Pozsony to Nándorfehérvár, is simply ridiculous.

And yes, part of Austria was also part of Pannonia: part of Austria belonged to Hungary until 1920. That is Burgenland today.

And let me, please, quote myself, perhaps now you understand, and can see that even the personal name was Pannonius. But the original name was different, so this name was the poete's alias in his oeuvres / works.

The title of his most famous poem is 'Pannonia's Laud'. So, for the people at that time, the name was known. And it is known for the people of our times. As it was known for the Romans. What era are YOU living, guy?....

"If you take the first medieval poete in Hungary who was also educated in Italian University, and became high rank officer of the Church, called Janus Pannonius, his poem about the spread of printed literature in Hungary, he was not very much aware of your stand point."

(I extremely hated you remark that you make up something with somebody 'personally', even if you are not right. That kind of thinking killed many people in history - unnocent people...
With the sole proposal for 'corruption' you made the target person be devaluated. He did not merit that. What do you merit doing things like that?)

[Nike]

Originally posted by kvzoltan
Actually, as Beograd was Hungarian city called Nándorfehérvár

Excuse me for interrupting your dispute but what do you mean with that? That the Hungarians found Beograd?

[Elewyn]

calm down. I understand you have red eyes everytime when somebody claims "your" territory. It probably was misunderstanding. I guess Finellach is not so silly to think Slavonia is up to Bratislava. He wrote south Hungary near Drava river. Pannonia covered in ancient times more area of Austria than Burgenland. Burgenland was part of Hungary before, Panonia didn't correspond with Hungary (medieval).

We all know how Hungarians are hurted by Treaty of Trianon, but don't be so rude when somebody calls Romanian cities Romanian now (I know Hungarians live there, but every normal guy knows it as city in Romania/Slovakia/Serbia) I have red eyes seeing you writting Pozsony, but I'm not instantly rude. It was second city of Hungary for quite long time, however it's population was German, Slovak and Hungarian, not only Hungarian. To make everybody understand, use pleas actual names. (I can also use czech names for all cities I am talking about, but who will understand me?* If you use Hungarian names, please, give to non-hungarians or not so educated people also translation to some other language. Thanks)

examples? how many of them you, kvzoltan, know?
Londyn (not so hard)
Vratislav (central Europe)
Celovec (central europe)
Mnichov (central europe)
Petikosteli (central europe)
Cluz (Balkans/central Europe)
Carihrad (Balkans)
Benatky (Italy)
Královec (European part of former USSR)
Cáchy (central Europe)

(to make it easier: 2-Germany, 1-Austria, 1-Hungary, 1-Italy etc.)

[Finellach]

Let me state it in another way.

1. The province Elewyn here marked as "Pannonia" (and obviusly KoH devs since they confirmed Elewyn's map) is most of what is today Slavonia and Sirmium with small parts of south-western Hungary. Now IN MY OPINION this should be called Slavonia and SHOULD BELONG TO HUNGARY AT THE BEGINING OF THE GAME! What is the difference here? Only the name. I don't think that this province in KoH should be called Pannonis since Pannonia was much bigger. Pannonia in KoH doesn't coresponds with the real area of Pannonia...it does coresponds with Slavonia which makes about 60-70% of this province according to the map. Unless of course I am looking at the wrong province.

Now let me repeat: MOST OF WHAT IS PROVINCE #86 IS ACTUALLY SLAVONIA!!! If you have the map Elewyn made you would see it. I don't understand what is your problem and what do you not understand since Slavonia is universal name used by HUNGARIAN(and at the same time Croatian) KINGS!!!

2. I don't see where have I showed "my agressive Balkan style-struggling to make Slavonia bigger than it is". I have clearly stated that Slavonia is from river Sava is from south to river Drau to the north and from Danube in the east to the west almost to Zagreb(Agram). Also I must say your statements so far were extremly ignorrant and coloured with almost unbelieveable nationalism...I guess this is something standard with you Hungarians...
Let me remind you that Croats never showed no apetite towards other countries teritory unlike your precious Hungary which sought to control all Croats and tried to magyrize Croats for centuries. Not to mention I said anything you suggested. Elewyn can confirm that.

3. Pannonia is not Hungarian province. It covers the area of ones and today non-existing Pannonian Sea (at least some people say so) that covers the area of today Vojvodina(Sirmium, Bacska, Banat), Slavonia with parts of north-western Croatia, parts of south-western Hungary, and all the way to western Austria. Province #86 does not covers this area, it only covers the parts of Sirmium, Slavonia and small parts of what is today south Hungary.

4. Your analogy with this unkown Hungarian poet is still unkown to me. Perhaps some english lessons? :rolleyes:

Edit: I forgot to mention this all was just a small opinion or suggestion and I was just looking for correction or explanation from Elewyn until you kvzoltan came with your nationalistic hegemony....it reminded me on our eastern neighbours....the same tactic...

[Elewyn]

one thing, Finnie.

There is little problem.
Which realms are neighbours of realm 86?
80 - Bosnia (this name is 90% guessed right)
85 - some hungarian realm, Buda, Pest, Ezstergom?
87 - Croatia (for 95%)
100 - Carinthia (70%)
101 - Austria (100%)
115 - Moravia (100%)

1 - Slavonia cannot border on Austria and Moravia, I guess you accept this. Pannonia can (eventhough some parts of Austria are part of roman Pannonia)

2 - river Danube must go somehow from Austria to realm 85 to "Budapest". How? through Moravia? NO
through Slavonia? NO
Between Moravia and Slavonia? NO
through Pannonia? no, but may be
between Moravia and Pannonia? from those opriton it is the best I guess.

I think you know what I mean. This realm is not limited by river Drava, but river Danube what change things significantly.

I won't comment nationalistic feelings.

PS: I actually posted to write down something else. Realm 107 seems to be Gelre.map (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt69ea7ce72cec9b2d.jpg)
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EDIT:
this (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt3a192c3c2a998b70.jpg) shows the region better. But still I think that Pannonia is too on north to be called Slavonia.
It doesn not border on Moravia, but still there is Austria and space for river Drava seems to be more south of this realm than on it's north border. It is not absolutely proper map of Europe, some things may look little different than in reality ;)

[Finellach]

Yes that map shows it clearly now. I mixed the provinces as I said in my previous post. I was orienting myself on that map about availability of units (the grey one) in combination of the one with numbers.

It seemed to me that the province #86 is what I am talking about instead this seem now clearly that it is the province #81 I refered to.

Now by the grey map it still seems to me this province (by the divine revelation we now know this is #81 not #86 :D ) is at least 50% (I think the percantage is bigger actually) consisted of Slavonia. I mean it goes too much to the west.

Thus I think that the province #81 (Vojvodina) should be named Slavonia not province #86.

I think it would clearer if you would post that grey map about availability of units and elaborate on it. ;)

To me it looks like a combination of the real area of todays Vojvodina, whole Slavonia and some small parts of south Hungary(Baranya). To me this seems wrong. Not to say Slavonia seems much better choice for a name since it's more unique, it was universal and it was official title for the whole area of Slavonia plus Sirmium and it existed in medieval times unlike Vojvodina which came into creation after the WW2 when Yugoslavia gained some other parts from Hungary and formed the authonomy of Vojvodina consisted from three smaller provinces: Sirmium, Bacska and Banat. And some parts of Baranya.

I don't even have to repeat that Vojvodina as a unique province didn't even existed as such before WW2 so it seems to me a bit unfair that this province should contain Slavonia and all other provinces and enforce some non-existing name to them in medieval times. It's almost like naming HRE Germany.

[Elewyn]

then Sirmium would be a solution, I guess. Some things shuold be explained
1) Devs didn't confirm whole list neither maps. They only step by step, province by province, screanshote by screenshot, reveal which names are used in game!
2) All those maps are made by me, so it is not absolutely correct, leave some reserve in seriousnes of "my sources"
3) KoH is a game, the borders of provinces cannot be exactly correct and fitting perfectly!
4) To everybody who don't know which map we are talking about (if didn't already get bored)
"number" map (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt69ea7ce72cec9b2d.jpg) taken from a screenshot, zoomed. Realm-capitals are what is right on this map, not borders, those are partly guessed, partly made-up by me.
the "grey" map (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt45c36c0615b81b79.jpg) is absolutely made up by me! I took Europe and draw there provinces. It was just for illustration of how many units will be possible. It will probably be removed soon, because there is no need to keep it "alive" when units problem already IS explained. For what I must say one big THANK YOU to Frujin.:cheers:
this map (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt3a192c3c2a998b70.jpg) is taken from screenshot. Only borders and province names guesses are edited by me. Black lines are almost sure, red ones are really GUESSED (I'm affraid that Tyrolia/Salzburg and Bavaria are only one province, Bavaria I hope). Some notes to this:
- the realm north of Bohemia is definitely Brandenburg.
- the realm west of Pomerania is definitely Mecklenburg

then back to Slavonia. I think that Slavonia is quite connected to Croatia. If you look at number map, you will see, that realm 81 is not neighbouring to Croatia itself, Bosnia (80) is between them probably. When Vojvodina is not so good, I would suggest name Sirmium, but it depends only on devs how will they name it.