City names vs. province names

[Vytis]

... what is the reason for Curronian province? Curronians were a powerful baltic tribe, but their fate was same as other Livonian tribes. So, if you would ever need to reduce the number of provinces, you could just join Curronia (112) to Livonia (121), in my opinion.
Well, I'm not sure if it'd be really accurate to say that curonians shared the same fate as other tribes. They managed to establish their own country- Duchy of Kurland[Courland/Kurzeme/Kursas]. Other livonian tribes didn't.
However, I agree that this province is optional.

[Siena]

Hi Vytis,
I have to admit that I am not sure which historical period this game concentrates on.
My assumption was, that it was strictly Middle Ages or something like that.
I was talking about period - before German order had come to Livonia and - during its existance there.
Duchy of Courland was established in 1561 or so - at least that is what I found on the Internet.

Still - the main factor will be gameplay, I imagine. The provinces are there mainly to generate game-money and armies.
So if more provinces will be needed in that area - Courland could be a possibility. Or Lithuania could be split in a few provinces - Trakai, Vilnius... There are many possibilities.

On the whole - current map is pretty good, I think.

Elewyn,
One more suggestion regarding:
84 - Ukraine - Odessa. I think Odessa was founded in XVIII century or so by Catherine the Great.
Also in the Middle Ages that area was mainly uninhabited, except in the North and West - where Podole was located.
So it would be a possibility to call that province
84 - Podole - either Bratzlav or Kamenetz was the main fortress.
However, I am not sure if this acceptable to Ukrainians....

Henrik, thanks again :) However, I would not call myself expert - it is a hobby, that's all :D

[Elewyn]

Thanks, Siena.

I am really not satisfied with 84 - Ukraine and Odessa as its capital.
Now I am working on some changes concerning whole Europe.

In my plans :) Currland/Curonia and Samogitia are about to be united into ane realm (I don't want to copy borders of nowadays states), and tha also means little moving with realms of that region (Prussia-110, Samogitia-111, Lithuania-113 and Livonia-121)

Probem with realm 84 is that Podolie is more betwen this realm and Kiev-115, so maybe some changes are going to happen here:
Podole with Kamenetz as capital emerges, Ukraine will be, but maybe renamed to Jedisan and with capital in Olbia (ancient greek town where today Parutine lies).

I'm trying to make it playable and correct as possible, but also effective for this game.
What I can promisse are changes in "Russian planes" and Baltic and Alpine region to be as close to game as possible.

Btw. it's nice to have experts of Scandinavian (especially Jarlabanke, Jorghan and Henrik), Baltic (Siena, but also all Lithuanians here :)) history.
The purpouse is not to help me but help the devs, who (and I am sure about it) listen every leaf moving here ;)

[Vytis]

In my plans Currland/Curonia and Samogitia are about to be united into ane realm...
I think it's better to merge Courland and Livonia instead of Courland and Samogitia. Historically it would be much more accurate.
Also, I'd like to suggest merging Kiev, Pereslavl and eastern half of #84. Province and city = Kiev.
Western half of #84 should be Podolia. City = Braclav.

#108 city name should be either Lutzk or Luck [pronounced lootsk].


-->Siena. The same Siena from Paradox forums? Good to see u here.

[Jarlabanke]

Kiev all the way

[Elewyn]

I think it's better to merge Courland and Livonia instead of Courland and Samogitia. Historically it would be much more accurate.
Also, I'd like to suggest merging Kiev, Pereslavl and eastern half of #84. Province and city = Kiev.
Western half of #84 should be Podolia. City = Braclav.

#108 city name should be either Lutzk or Luck [pronounced lootsk].
1. If Courland+Livonia, then Samogitia (to be large enough) must move to southeast and Lithuania will be long noodle. Like Courland was before, so no final solution. This game is about historical acurancy together with playability. I show you both versions and I hope you'll agree with me.

To Kiev. Do you think there should be realm of that largeness?
My changes in Russian plains are simply the oposite - making smaller realms. But I'll change it how Frujin or Frank ask me finally, because they should decide how many realms should be in certain region.

[Jarlabanke]

In the Nestors Chronicle which I read little more than a year ago, there are two towns they keep mentioning these are Novgorod and Kiev, otherwise it's mostly different tribes.

[Vytis]

1. If Courland+Livonia, then Samogitia (to be large enough) must move to southeast and Lithuania will be long noodle.
Why do feel that Samogitia should be made larger? It's fine as it is. After all, it was(is) not a big region.

To Kiev. Do you think there should be realm of that largeness?My changes in Russian plains are simply the oposite - making smaller realms.
Russian and other eastern (mongolian) realms were so big for a good reason - low population (per sq. km) Larger land area doesn't automatically mean greater power.
Speaking of Kiev, in GDofLith. it was at least twice as big as any other province/land.


This talk about realm sizes raised a concern when looking at proposed map. There are many small provinces in the Balkans but only a couple in the whole of western Germany. To me it simply doesn't look right. Western Germany (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/central_europe_1477.jpg) should be the most fragmented part of Europe.

[Siena]

Hi Elewyn,
in my opinion, the map that you already have is very good. At least around Lithuania - because that is where I am looking :D
It is better than Europa Universalis had.
Samogitia and Prussia are placed very well.

It would be a step back to merge Samogitia to Courland, I think. That would possibly make sense in a prehistoric period, maybe. Bur not in Middle Ages.
The border between Latvia and Lithuania (which includes Samogitia) - have not changed for many centuries, and was fixed in the Middle Ages. So it is a very good reference point :)

If you are concerned that Livonia will be too big after merging Courland to Livonia - you can make Pskov (town Pskov) province between Novgorod(120) and Livonia(121) - it was historically there. But please do not merge Courland and Samogitia :)

Also if you need another Russian province - you can make Duchy of Tver (town Tver) between Novgorod(120) and Muskowy(119).

And if you want to make Smolensk(118 ) smaller - you can place Duchy of Vitebsk (town also Vitebsk) between Polotsk(114) and Smolensk(118 ).

Regarding Kiev(115) - I think is is quite good as it is.
Podole could take Eastern part of Ukraine(84) and separate Kiev(115) from Moldova(85) and from Poland. Podole was a major point of fighting between Poles and Lithuanians for centuries, while Kiev was not really contested once Lithuanians took it (in 1322 as latest research suggest - but finaly attached to Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 1362 or so).
In the historical maps that I have - the rest of Ukraine - is just painted white and called "uninhabitted area". However, for gameplay reasons - you can join it either to Kiev or Podole.
Or you can leave it as it is. It is not very bad either :) I think.

Vytis,
town name of Luck - seems like word "luck" in english :) To get it closer to original sounding - it is better to have either Luzk or Lutzk.

And yes, I call myself Siena in all forums.
I spent most of the foruming time in Medieval TotalWar forum a while ago...
But this is the first game that will have Lithuania playable. So I would be happy if I could help :)

[Elewyn]

Guys. I agree with you because I like correctness. Reason why I put Courland on map is that I like having it there. But the devs must think of playability of game, do you can't have loong thin noodle realms like Courland is. Also realm must have certain size, that's why in Rheinland are not all those duchies and provinces that should be. So it also depends on more things :(

About realms in Russia. Of course they must be larger than Italian or other western european ones, but it is too much to have Kiev realm larger than Anjou, Bretagne, Normandy and Ille-de-France together. I don't see any reson why to make it larger than it is. One more thing. Everyone knows about counties in France and Germany, but there was something like this in Russia (Volhyn, Galicia, Polotsk, Turovpinsk, Smolensk, Perjeslawl, Kiev, Podole, Novgorod-Severskij, Chernigov, Vladimir-Suzdal, Murom, Riazan, Doneck, Gomel and those you mentioned Vitebsk, Pskov) and they all deserve to be there like Anjou, Courland or Genoa are.

I keep your complaints in mind and include them when thinking about final map

And last note. I can draw myself whatever I (and you) want, but finel decission will be on the devs, who MUST include playability.

PS:I guess there can't be too big nor too small realms. Then population can be compensated by population limit (e.i. in Russian realm lower than in German).

[Bagpipe]

Yep. It would be better to merge Livonia and Curland, not Samogitia, esp. for late period. It would be too large? Maybe, but Russian provinces are made much larger. I don't know. Curonians were one of the most powerful Baltic tribes before German knights and Lithuania state, however. They had some successful struggles with vikings (Danes). So, being separate realm wouldn't be a mistake in early - high medieval periods.

[Elewyn]

But you know, realms don't change in entry points. There is only one map for all three.

here (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt40197dce7c303900.jpg) are 4 maps of Baltic region with particular "realms"

1 is original, most historicaly correct
2 is imo the best solution for playability if there can be so much realms
3 is imo the best solution for playability if there can't be so much realms (and it's very likely that devs used this version on their map, from what I've seen)
4 is as I understood solution you want.

Frujin, Frank Fay? Which of those is the best for you?

[Vytis]

# 1 is historically accurate only for post-medieval time period (Duchy of Kurland). That's why I feel that such borders are not acceptable in a medieval game.
Curonian tribe inhabited only the western part of Kurland as it's shown on #1 and #2. The central part was/is called Zemgale (main city Mintauja/Jelgava). The easternmost part of Kurland as it's shown on#1 was yet another tribes (Seliai) land.
Curonians, zemgalians, selians and other tribes were conquered by Teutonic knights. The whole conquered area was called Livonia. Kurland was part of it. Samogitia wasn't. As Siena pointed out - the border between Latvia/Livonia and Samogitia/Lithuania hasn't changed much for centuries. So having 1 province (Samogitia+Kurland) is simply wrong.
#4 on the other hand looks pretty good to me.

[Bagpipe]

Originally posted by Elewyn
[B]But you know, realms don't change in entry points. There is only one map for all three.



I know it. I've just expressed my double opinion not suggesting anything in particular.


About your maps.
4. You've understood my solution right. I think, it would be the best for The Game. However, there isn't a big difference from 3rd map, only Samogitia divided. So, if THEY have chosen the 3rd example, it's not very bad eitherway. But how this C realm in 3rd ex. could be called? Curland?

2. I undestand realms there are to small for KoH:(

[Siena]

2 or 4 seems fine, I think.

[Elewyn]

I hope so :)

Now, let devs decide which of them they choose.

And, guys?

Would any of you mind Germany like this? (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt1558250a2a9884c3.jpg) :cool:

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Elewyn
I hope so :)

Now, let devs decide which of them.

And, guys?

Would any of you mind Germany like this? (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt1558250a2a9884c3.jpg) :cool:

NOooooooooooo, I don't mind ! - it's awesome Elewyn :)

Keep up the great work :go:

[Vytis]

"...Germany like this..." looks pretty good to me :)

[Siena]

I want to explain my answer regarding Baltic map.

#1 and #2 were with Courland province included. Out of those two - #2 is better, because that has Courland in its actual place.

#3 and #4 - without Courland. And out of those - #4 is better, because that border between Livonia and Lithuania looks more real for anybody who used to look at the Baltic map :) In #3 - Samogitia goes way too much to the North... :)

Overall - #4 is the best, because Courland is really optional, I think.

Also, is it me, or the border betweem Estonia and Livonia looks better in #1 and #2, than #3 and #4?

So, for my eyes the #1 is the ideal one, with the exception of Courland, which should really be joined with Livonia.
Now, of course - I am assuming that the size of the province has nothing to do with its strength. That's a separate issue.

[Emhyr var Emreis]

Originally posted by Elewyn
I hope so :)

Now, let devs decide which of them they choose.

And, guys?

Would any of you mind Germany like this? (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt1558250a2a9884c3.jpg) :cool:
Great:go: Only realm called Styria should be renamed to Carantania (Kärnten in german) or Crania/Carniola (Krain) and region between Gelvetia and Lorraine is called "Alsace" not "Alcase" :D