City names vs. province names

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
I can only repeat that KoH is not a History Channel programme. For the sake of a greater appeal we have to make here and there a trade off between accuracy and fun.

Hmmmm, eventough KoH is not meant to be a "history lesson" i think it would be nice if it was as accurate as possible - i think it would be cool to play a game for fun and then actually learn something usefull from it like history forexample !

[Gorgoroth]

Whoa, I've never seen your list so far, Elewyn! Hella good job, I must say.
I've never encountered a single person in my life who was so addicted to a game like you. This was a positive remark btw. :go:

[4zzY]

i've just taken a thorough look
through your list
:eek:
its great from your side to do all this job
you must be a history student
or i just can't believe you done all that
one big :cheers: from everyone that's what you deserve

i have of course my doubts about it
but to be honest i even haven't heard some of the names
so i do not pretend to be precise or right
it's just a few remarks i thought about while reading it

are you s**** about this Rashka thing
because i really haven't heard it at all
maybe you should use Kosovo instead or i don't know

about other balkan regions
it sounds strange to call the region of the capital
by the name of hte country - as in Turnovo -Bulgaria
the Romans i think had this region Miese or Misia
(between the Danube & the Balkan mountains)
i know its another time period but i am not s****
how it was called in medieval times

about the Russian and some Scandinavian regions
they are way too big i think
i know it is maybe difficult to find info about those
but it is strange to have so dence division in central Europe
and such huge regions in the east

and i would also like to ask how those nameless
regions are gonna be called
name=capitol ar what
what is the developer's oppinion

...somebody???

[Redback]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
I can only repeat that KoH is not a History Channel programme. For the sake of a greater appeal we have to make here and there a trade off between accuracy and fun.

Yes ,I have to agree with Frank on this one,
I did Market research for an Australian Game developer in my younger days.

And to reach a wider audience,you sometimes have to sacrifice
Historical accuracy.

Unfortunately for us hardcore History buffs we are a minority,
and games made just for us don't sell well,
thats why KOH has to cater for a wider Audience.
The majority of gamers don't care about historical accuracy they just want to have fun.

btw; Elewyn you have done a fantastic job ,Great Work
{I study Military History as a Hobby,and this helps for a project I am doing,Thanks}:cool: :cool: :D :cheers:

[Elewyn]

I'm not the only author of the list. Many others helped me:
Jarlabanke(!), Henrik(!), Finellach(!), Jorghan (!), Vytis (!), Siena (!), timurlenk, Bagpipe, Gorgoroth, Havoc, Lamaz, Bora, Whismerhil, Arjenvs, Pikeman, Vajk, kvzoltan and especially to Moorkh, who started this thread :) and of course Frank Fay and Frujin that they listened what we were trying to push :)

I only completed info they gave here and filled the gaps.

Bwt, Kosovo will be rubbish (like calling area south east of Lithuania Belarus or use Romania instead of Transylvania and Wallachia). I'm sure with Raschka, but as Finellach corrected me, Zeta is probably better or maybe Montenegro (but I personally don't think it will be fine)

Problem of big realms in the desert orin russian steppes is that there was not so big settlement and also every bigger city in medieval Russia is capital of a realm, what is really not the case of western Europe, just have look to Low countries and Italy. Central and westrn Europe would deserve even smaller and more numerous realms than it has IMO.
In Scandinavia I followed advices of Sweedes(Jorghan, Jarlabanke) and Danes(Henrik) and also my knowledge and "research"

no nameless regions. First is Province, then capital, if it city has diferent name. So province Bulgaria, capital Turnovo (medieval centre, I guess)

thanks for :cheers:
one good :cheers: also for you

btw, you're welcome, Redback :cheers:
but please, note that this is not historically correct many times! Cologne f.e. has nothing to do with Lorraine (Lorraine is little more on south), Cantenbury has nothing to do with Wessex, and some more are little made up! or moved few km's (Utrecht)

[Henrik]

I'm always right behind you as a shadow Elewyn :) - if you wanna know something just "turn around" ask me :go:

[Finellach]

4zzY Kosovo would be wrong since it was only a small southwest part of Rashka or as Serbs also call it now - Sandžak(Sanjak with J as in Jay). ;)

Kosovo as separate "province" came only later and got a full authonomy because of huge majority of Albanians. Before that Kosovo was only a part of Rashka with Serbs as a majority. The re-alocation of population came in the time of Turkish invasions when Serbs started to fled north and thus they are now majority in Vojvodina although this was never their land before that. The same thing happened with Albanians who were settled in Kosovo by the Turks.

Elewyn I would go with the historical names. Zeta is perfect because it's historicly correct, just as Rashka is perfect name for Serbia. :)

[Redback]

Originally posted by Elewyn
I'm not the only author of the list. Many others helped me:
Jarlabanke(!), Henrik(!), Finellach(!), Jorghan (!), Vytis (!), Siena (!), timurlenk, Bagpipe, Gorgoroth, Havoc, Lamaz, Bora, Whismerhil, Arjenvs, Pikeman, Vajk, kvzoltan and especially to Moorkh, who started this thread :) and of course Frank Fay and Frujin that they listened what we were trying to push :)


Many thanks to everyone then.
I'll buy you all a round,here ya go :cheers:{hick!}

[Finellach]

I've done some research about Bosnians districts by looking the maps of Croatia and came to the next conclusion: in the area of todays Sarajevo there was a district, although it was not so important as other towns in the area of Dalmatia-Zeta it was to some degree important for Bosnia and it was noted and is on the maps.

Anyway I established these facts:
1. Sarajevo was founded in 15th century and the only settlement mentioned in that place were: Kotorac/Katera and later Vrhbosna as Church district.
2. Vrhobosna and Kotorac probably united with few others settlemets
3. Vrhobosna was the most important of these settlements that united to form Sarajevo in 15th century.

Conclusion: district of Bosnia should not be Sarajevo, but Vrhbosna. It did become Sarajevo later with the unification with other villages. Something like Gradec and Kaptol to form Zagreb(Agram).

I also looked at province of Zeta to try to find what would be the best suitable district and IMO the only reasonable and logical solution is the same I already thought of. The district of Zeta should be Kotor. With Ragusa/Dubrovnik the most important city in that part.

I also have some doubts about Zadar and Graced for districts, but then again as Frank said this is a game not a history lesson. :)


Changes:
78. Zeta - Kotor(Cattaro in Italian)
80. Bosnia - Vrhbosna(Sarajevo)

[4zzY]

montenegro will be beter for "rashka"
just my oppinion
btw serbia was originally founded in the region of Kosovo
which then had the same name
thats why the serbs are so touchy about it now
the albanians came much much later
not untill 19th century

about sarajevo
as far as i know saraj (saraje?) in turkish means
saomething like an inn
a stop on the road for traders
and so it was the way Sarajevo was founded
as a stop for travelers and traders on their way to Central Europe
saomeone from Bosnia, Croatia, or Serbia should know better
it is strange that you give 15th century since
tha region was still a battlefield at that time
with the expansion of the turks

about russa i think we really need a russian guy
or at least somewone who speaks russan
they have great sites about history
but unfortunately only in russan

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by 4zzY

about russa i think we really need a russian guy
or at least somewone who speaks russan
they have great sites about history
but unfortunately only in russan

Eh and lot of them are full with fake informations propably.
I remember a russian guy posted some fake 'bull****' about the scythian princess in some other forums [archeological finding], and the others jumped on him, because he couldnt stop to post the fake infos from a russian site. :D

The internet can be good and bad, sometime it is full with fake informations. That is why I am inspecting books before I post important stuff. :cool:

[Finellach]

Originally posted by 4zzY
montenegro will be beter for "rashka"
just my oppinion


Montenegro would not be better for Rashka because Rashka is was what is now central part of Serbia also called today Sandžak. What is Montenegro was called Zeta and before that was the area of "Red Croatia".

Originally posted by 4zzY
btw serbia was originally founded in the region of Kosovo
which then had the same name
thats why the serbs are so touchy about it now
the albanians came much much later
not untill 19th century

Once again: Serbia was in early period named Rashka. Kosovo at that time didn't existed but was only a part of Rashka. Later in 13th century Serbs united Zeta and Rashka and Serbian kingdom was founded. Read my previous post.

Originally posted by 4zzY
about sarajevo
as far as i know saraj (saraje?) in turkish means
saomething like an inn
a stop on the road for traders
and so it was the way Sarajevo was founded
as a stop for travelers and traders on their way to Central Europe
saomeone from Bosnia, Croatia, or Serbia should know better
it is strange that you give 15th century since
tha region was still a battlefield at that time
with the expansion of the turks

You post this as if you haven't read what I wrote.
Sarajevo started to exist when Turks united and fortified few neighbouring villages and trasnformed it into center for all their military actions in the region and towards central/west Europe. Before that there already were couple of important settlements. One was VRHBOSNA(bishoporic and main center for Bosnia) and Katera which was probably just a larger village serving as outpost or something. As I said Vrhbosna should be the name for the center of Bosnia as opposed to Sarajevo which was name given with the arrival of Turks.
Technically Sarajevo evolved from Vrhbosna just as Zagreb evolved from Gradec and Kaptol or Budapest from Buda and Pest.

I don't know what Saraj means in Turkish, but if it means what you say then it is obvious it got the name because there Turks rested and equipped their armies before proceeding further to attack central Europe.

So once again to make it clear :rolleyes:

78. Zeta - Kotor
80. Bosna - Vrhbosna

Btw. Montenegro(in native Crna Gora) and Caterro (Kotor) are both italian names.

[4zzY]

:sad: Finellach sorry to make you that mad about those
i just wanted to know that perhaps people outside the balkans
don't know a thing about the history there
and even i who know a bit havent heard those
and if the case with the game is that realism should be sacrificed
than those names in a relatively central and even leading
in the early and middle stage of the game are a bit irrelevent
no offence meant of cource
i see you are a real expert on those matters so you get your :cheers:
but think about the poor ignorant friends of mine :p
zeta - kotor sounds to me like a distant planet :D but thats my foult

about russian stuff i'll try to ask somebody to do some research for me
(i'm reaaly good in making people do stuff for me i suppose :D )
i knew a guy from another forum who was a history freak and a russian
and i'll try to find him again

[Finellach]

I was not mad. I was just trying to explain it to you. ;)

And yes Zeta is a strange name. It was first used somewhere in the year 1042/1043 when Zeta became independant from Byznatium. The name was the same as the name of trbiutary of the river Moracha. Before that Zeta was known by the name Duklja(Doclea or Dioclea) which was the Byznatine name for the province.

In the 9th century this area was also known as 'Red Croatia' although we don't have much information of this mysterious name and how it led to it. Perhaps Croatian dukes ruled it...who knows. :)

[Vytis]

about russian stuff i'll try to ask somebody to do some research...
Are there some russian provinces that you don't feel like they're accurate?
I think Elewyn did a pretty good job there.

[Elewyn]

I think Russian principalities are little "dislocated" just to cover far areas on the north, but there are almost all of existing medieval Russian principalities in KoH. If you compare map I've shown with names I expect there with this (http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1200.htm), this (http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm) and this (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/russian_growth_1300_1796.jpg) maps you'll see that is's almost perfect. At least it's not made woorse than the rest (there can't be really every principality, duchy, region which existed through middle ages).

Also russian principalities were in many cases very short-timed (very often not more than 2-4 rulers, then it became part of another one or something like that) and instabile.

btw I found map which may inspire devs for late period:
Europe 1360 A.D. (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/1360eur.jpg)

[Drake Maethor]

Zeta?
wow
that's the Spanish for this little letter 'Z'.

[Finellach]

I think that 'Zeta' is actually latin designation for the letter Z. Since Spanish is a bit more evolved latin it's not wonder that you still use 'zeta'. :D

[Ioan Asen II]

Originally posted by 4zzY
...
about sarajevo
as far as i know saraj (saraje?) in turkish means
saomething like an inn
a stop on the road for traders
and so it was the way Sarajevo was founded
as a stop for travelers and traders on their way to Central Europe
saomeone from Bosnia, Croatia, or Serbia should know better
it is strange that you give 15th century since
tha region was still a battlefield at that time
with the expansion of the turks


May be you're talking 'bout Kervansaray which exactly means (in Turkish language) "a stop on the road for traders" as you said, or more precisely: caravansErai - "An inn in some Eastern countries with a large courtyard that provides accommodation for caravans.", also Serai - A place for the accommodation of travelers; a caravansaray, or rest house. Look also here (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/turkish-english/ke/kervansaray.html)

And Saray is quit a different word: it means court, palace, seraglio. Also look here (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/turkish-english/sa/saray.html)

[Ioan Asen II]

Originally posted by Elewyn

BALKAN AND HUNGARY:
68 Crete*-Iraklis*
69 Achaia-Athens
70 Solun-Thesaloniki
71 Thrace-Constantinopolis(Constantinople)
72 Dobrudja-Karvuna
73 Wallachia or Dacia*-Bucharest
74 Bulgaria-Tarnovo
75 Vidin
76 Macedonia-Ochrid*
77 Epir-Dyrrhachion(Dürës/Drac)
78 Zeta*
79 Raschka or Serbia-Beograd(Belgrade)
80 Bosnia-Sarajevo
81 Vojvodina-Sirmium
82 Transylvania*-Klausenburg(Cluj/Kolozsvár)*
83 Upper Hungary-Kaschau(Kosice/Kassa)
84 Kalocsa
85 Alföld-Buda
86 Panonnia-Pécs
87 Croatia-Gradec or Zagreb
88 Dalmatia*-Zadar


Just a few questions:
75 Vidin - May be the city should be Bdin?! And even the province too, ah?!?
74 Bulgaria - the name of the city Tarnovo or Turnovo?!?
And about
73 Wallachia - Is Bucharest really existed as town at that time? Just asking, 'cause i'm not sure...