holy roman empire vs. germany

[d'Honaire]

Elewyn , now that you mention Frederick Barbarossa, in regards to the HRE, will Charlemagne be brought up? Could Charlemagne :king: be a part of KOH or does KOH go back that far?

[Gorgoroth]

Eh, I dont think that you will see Charlemagne in the game. :rolleyes:

[Elewyn]

@Gorgy. When reading only that one line, everything what you wrote i right (and I'll be the first who will get Really disapointed if KoH will have Germany). But in context of whole post I hope you understand it. Again, I try to understand reasons of their statement and I know that even half of my friends (except history students), who are mostly over 20 and people studying university-humanity studies, they don't know and don't care of how Germany was called in history. But in the same breath I must say that they will apreciate getting known something they haven't known or forget.

@d'Honaire, this game starts in around 1000 A.D. it's almost 200 yrs after the death of Charlemagne. I doubt he'll be there

[Finellach]

I don't see how could the naming HRE to Germany would influence the buyers. After all those who are not "history fanatics" care only about gameplay and graphics the rest is unimportant. Thus I don't see the reasons for changing HRE to Germany.

[Redback]

Originally posted by Gorgoroth
This is still very weird to me. Do you think that if you will use the Germany naming in the game instead of the Holy Roman Empire, the game will sell better???
I seriously doubt that.
Propably every buyers spent many years in the school, learning history, so why is this a problem?

Elewyn I dont understand your reply:

"nope, this game is not only for history maniacs!"

That is very true, but a not correct empire naming has nothing to do with the "history maniacs" term IMHO.
This whole discussion is totally pointless, the "germany" naming will be incorrect, everyone know it, even the buyers of the game.
:rolleyes:

If you change only one name the game would still not be Historically accurate so changing one name wouldn't matter.

But if you want a game to be 100% historically accurate you have to change all the names,and even then you would not make everyone happy,because names change all the time.{and that would be a real pain to program}

To make everybody happy the game would have to change from RTS to pure Historical simulation,and its a fact that pure historical simulations just don't sell well.:)

Because they just get to complicated for the casual gamer,and they don't have fun playing them.{unless you are a History buff, I myself like very detailed historical and complicated games.}But they are very rare,like I said they don't sell well:) :p

But its all in the hands of the Royal court at BSS:D
and I'm sure they know what their doing;) :p :D
Have fun:cheers:

ps. How many people could you go up to in the street, could tell you much about the history of Europe etc

[Elewyn]

Do you understand we don't want 100% pure history simulation? It would be boring for ordinary buyer. But as we said, they don't care what is right (because many of them don't know it) so they will accept it as it will be, with or without correct names. For them the only important thing is playability. And I really doubt that having one incorrect name among 100 correct will increase playability. The only thing it can do is to make angry or curious the people who know the right name.

This is not a case of naming some province by absolutely correct name. In case of province you have no way how to explain why it is Flandre when it is in area of Flandre, Brabant, Holland etc. or why is it Flandre when it is Belgium. That is case of definite resolution without any way how to explain it, so it must stay between correctnes and common knowledge of players.

But this is a case of playable nationality which is described before you chose it. So when a normal gamer will see damn! what the Romans do in Germany, he instantly can read that it is an ancestor of Germany and it was called Holy Roman Empire and then everything can be alright, like he can do with Castille which is there in central Spain f.e. Neither fun nor correctnes will suffer.

And once again, I ask you, "Germany club", to tell me why the fun will suffer in case of HRE when it won't in case of Byzantium, Fatimid Egypt and many more examples. It's all the same: old and correct name of a state which is mainly in area of one of nowadays states. All those are named correctly, but HRE is called Germany. What is the difference between HRE and all others?
ordinary gamer will mind it only in case of Germany and not in all other cases? I doubt. If he will mind it, he will in all cases the same, he will mind HRE as well as Byzantium and Castille etc.

When a gamer playing KoH for England will get note: "Holy Roman Emperor offers you his daughter!" he will probably first seek it in Italy, then he will look at map and find it. If he will be curious, he will read description. If he won't be curious, he will play then because "it is one of those strange medieval names like Byzantium or Fatimids or Castilia"
When he will get note from Castillia, he first won't know where it is and he will find it on a map and then it will be the same like with HRE.
The same with all other names.

Correct naming of playable fractions doesn't require encyclopedical knowledge of gamers to be able to play. They only click, read description and play. Having pure and very complicated feudal system would be something diferent, but naming? Especially when all nations are named correctly, one single bad naming won't make it more understandable.ps. How many people could you go up to in the street, could tell you much about the history of Europe etc You're right!
How many of those people will know where Castilia is and what does it mean? How many of those will know where and what HolyRomanEmpire is? How many of them will know where and what Byzantium is? How many of them will know that Lithuania covered whole nowadays Belarus and Ukraine in 14th century, England was divided to more than one kingdom before 1000AD, Sweden ruled in Finland, Fatimids were Egyptian muslim dynasty? how namy of them?

Does it mean there is only one fraction in nowadays Spain?. Does it mean Egypt is called Egypt instead of Fatimids? Israel is called Israel instead of Jerusaem? is Romania in area of nowadays Romania? Is nowadays Belgium independent state called Belgium in KoH? no (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//english/screenshot.php?screenshot=0119&all=0119|0118|0117|0116|0115|0114|0113|0112|0111#) no (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//english/screenshot.php?screenshot=0118&all=0119|0118|0117|0116|0115|0114|0113|0112|0111)
All these things may kill the fun same like correct name of HRE. Although all those are correct, Germany is the only incorrect state name in KoH(oh, sorry, not only, Also Lithuania in early period). Why?

[timurlenk]

And once again, I ask you, "Germany club", to tell me why the fun will suffer in case of HRE

thats what im asking myself too :confused:

frujin, news?

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by Finellach
I don't see how could the naming HRE to Germany would influence the buyers. After all those who are not "history fanatics" care only about gameplay and graphics the rest is unimportant. Thus I don't see the reasons for changing HRE to Germany.

I agree with Finellach.

Okay I wont argue in this question. :D
Pointless discussion, the devs will decide it. They know the reactions of the forum posters.
This isnt that important anyways, however it would be good to stay historic a little, since the HRE was a huge and powerful medieval empire, not a tiny, little country. A major power of the medieval Europe shouldnt be named incorrectly, that is my opinion. :cheers:

[Sir Turylon]

Historically

HRE was both Germanic tribes and remains of Western Roman empire. thus, Holy Roman Empire. It wasn't until the Germanic states , in the HRE, fused together to form the German state under Bismarck that it was called Germany. Perhaps they could change it to Germania (Germanic tribes)?

Maybe the screenshot in Elewyn's post is suppose to represent before the HRE was formed. Forget the dates, since they really do not matter in KoH :) They are just starting guidelines for the history nerds amongst us.

There does remain a bigger problem than this. Will we run out of ale before we go rampaging across Europe?

*edited after a bit of research*

[Elewyn]

oh, there are 2 screenshots. One for 1000 when HRE was not formed, it was Roman Empire before 1158 or East Frankish Empire in 843-approx.962

the second is in 1200 just few years after the strongest HRE emperor Frederick Barbarossa who ruled strongly as universal supreme ruler of whole area of HRE including Burguundy and Italy and he almost broke Bohemian independence! Also his Grandson Frederick II. was supreme ruler of whole HRE although he felt himself little more king of Sicily. It was in later 13th and 14th century whenpower of emperors has fallen. In high middle ages it was HRE on the top of it's power-universal monarchy. Frederick Barbarossa will be hurt seriously if called "king of Germany":cheers:

[Gorgoroth]

The Official Name of the Holy Roman Empire


The word imperium appears in official documents of Otto I, but it denotes the imperial power, not the territory. After Henry II's death some Italian magnates offered the crown of Italy to the son of the duke of Aquitaine, and swore to help him acquire the "imperium" of the Romans; here, the word meant the title itself.
One has to wait until Conrad II to find Romanum imperium used to designate the lands ruled by the emperor (documents of 1034 and 1038). Curiously, the expression Romana res publica is used with the same meaning contemporaneously. The use of the phrase Romanum imperium remains rare under Henry II (in 1049, 1053) and successors until Frederic I. It is however, occasionally used in non-official documents, such as letters, chronicles, even Papal encyclicals (in 1076).

At the same tine, one finds the expression Romanum regnum (Roman realm) in an official document of 1041. In 1045, the signature of the emperor is described as signum regis invictissimi Henrici tertii, Burgundiorum primi, Romanorum secundi. Correspondingly, the title Rex Romanorum makes its apparition in 1040, and is officially adopted in the Intitulatio in 1041 and in the monogram in 1043.

The use of Romanum imperium becomes considerably more frequent under Frederic I Barbarossa (in 1152, 1155, 1157-9, 1162), In 1157, one finds a concurrent use of sacrum imperium et diva res publica (holy empire and holy commonwealth). The phrase sacrum imperium is found again in 1161, 1164, 1174, 1184-6. In 1159, one finds sacratissimum imperium, a phrase occasionally encountered until Otto IV.

The two expressions Romanum imperium and sacrum imperium are used concurrently in official documents for a century, but one does not find the two together until 1254: sacrum Romanum imperium. From that date, the new phrase never falls out of use although the shorter formulas continue to be used commonly.

Official documents in the German language show the phrase heiliges Reich or Römisches Reich frequently in documents of Ludwig of Bavaria, but heiliges Römisches Reich is rare; it first appears in 1340. It becomes common with Charles IV (1347).

The last transformation of the official name of the Empire took place in the late 15th c. A Reformation issued at the Reichstag of Frankfurt in 1442 speaks of dem heiligen Römischen Reich und Deutschen Landern. A similar phrase appears at the Reichstag of 1471: des heiligen Römischen Reichs und der widrigen Teutschen Nation (in Latin: sacri Romani imperii ac celeberrimae nationis Germanicae), and in the Landsfriede of Nürnberg of 1487: dem heiligen Reiche und deutscher Nation, the Landsfriede of 1486: das Römische Reich Teutscher Nation, the Worms diet of 1497: das heilige Reich Teutscher Nation, and the Köln diet of 1512: des heiligen Römischen Reichs Teutscher Nation. The phrase entered the Wahlkapitulation of 1519, by which the emperor promised to reside within dem heiligen Römischen Reiche Teutscher Nation.

From the late 16th c. to the 18th c. jurists debated the meaning of the phrase. Other early 16th c. documents suggest that it originally may have meant the German part of the Empire, with deutsche Nation in opposition to fremde Nation. Interestingly, the debate in the 17th c. was whether the phrase meant that Germany happened to be an empire, or whether the Empire happened to be located mainly in Germany. Increasingly, jurists and writers used the phrase imperium Romano-Germanicum. Significantly, the final acts of the Holy Roman Empire, namely the Reichsdeputationshauptschluß of 1803, the note of the French ambassador of August 1, 1806 and the abdication of Francis II, all use the phrase Deutsches Reich (confederation germanique) rather than the formal title.

(Source: Karl Zeumer: Heiliges römisches Reich deutscher Nation. in Quellen und Studien, Bd IV, Heft 2. Weimar, 1910.)

[Sir Turylon]

*edit*

Hmm, on second thought....

Perhaps they should change it to Eastern Roman Empire.

Interesting that we see the new unit "roman infantry."

Long live the Carolingians!

[Kuno of Gersenau]

But the Eastern Roman Empire is Byzantia...

The Byzantines called themselves always "Eastern Roman Empire", even the biggest part of their population were Greeks...
(Not sure if this all is right, correct me Elewyn if I'm wrong :D)

So call it HRE Devs please...:)


BTW: I suppose "Roman Infantery" are the guards of the pope. And don't come with the Swiss Guard now people, they were founded after the Medival or at the end of it...;) :D

[Elewyn]

You're almost right, Kuno. Byzantines didn't call themselves Eastern Romans, but Romans (Romaioi), since Western Empire has fallen.

Since late middle ages people from the west called them Byzantines. Byzantium was true successor of Roman Empire, West empire (Holy Roman Empire) was "rebuilt and translocated" Roman Empire.

[Sir Turylon]

*doh*

lol, I feel so embarrased. I meant Eastern Frankish Empire. Since that is what it was up till Otto I took over and turned it into the Roman Empire of Germanic states, or later HRE.

Aside from all the jargon, it would be MOST prudent for the devs to change it to something more accurate to the time period. Considering they have gone to such great lengths of finding the other names and general boundaries of the counties/regions... To me it seems they stopped short with the HRE because not many "gamers" would recognize it.... but then again... It is in the general area of Germany, and it might help encourage people into reading up on this time period.

Also, anyone notice the discrepancy in the devs' information about France in the selection screen. 10 :cheers: if you can figure it out. here it is, go look. (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//gfx/screenshots/scr_koh_0118.jpg)

Elewyn is right. After the fall of the western roman empire, IE Diocese of Rome, Italy and the regions west of Greece, the Roman empire was displaced to Byzantium. It wasn't until the Papacy was formed that the western realms tried to re-assert themselves as the true Roman Empire. Charles was involved with that a great deal, specially after he knocked off the Lombardians for the pope.

Elewyn, any chance you happen to have studied this period in school? Or is this knowledge of yours just a general interest?

[Elewyn]

Elewyn
And once again, I ask you, "Germany club", to tell me why the fun will suffer in case of HRE (when it won't in case of Byzantium, Fatimids, Castille etc.)
timurlenk
thats what im asking myself too
:scratch:
why don't they answer?:(

[Cork2]

Maybe because there isn't a german club.

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Cork2
Maybe because there isn't a german club. Anti-HRE's is better?

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Anti-HRE's is better?


or heretics? :dwink:

[Vytis]

...I ask you, "Germany club", to tell me why the fun will suffer in case of HRE (when it won't in case of Byzantium, Fatimids, Castille etc

I don't think I'm in the 'Germany club' but I'll give 1 reason :

Because Byzantium, Fatimids, Castile etc. will be historically more justified names than HRE for the realms they're gonna represent in KoH. Therefore, the fun will suffer because of a greater historical [political-territorial] inaccuracy.

I have a question of my own for 'HRE club' :
Why is it german realms that must be called HRE? Why not Austria?

btw, I don't support neither 'Germany' nor 'HRE' :)