holy roman empire vs. germany

[Bora]

Originally posted by Angryminer
BTW: HRE was always a connection of many nations. It was always splitted. The name "Germany" might even suggest that it's a centralistic nation like the 2nd German Empire, but it wasn't.

But if HRE turns Germany, because poeple might not know about german history, they might not know about french history, so Burgundy should be annexed by France. Bohemia shouldn't be there too, Lithuania should be devided between Poland and Russia, Castille and Aragon should be merged to Spain, including Granada, the Ottoman Empire should turn into Turkey and the Teutonic Order might be unknown to some people, too.

Either leave the HRE's name as it was or be consequent and use today's map for this "medieval" game. ;)

Angryminer

ok as example: france was always france (except in the roman time or earlier) the same with england. and it doesnt absoluty no matter what regions/kingdoms that nation had conquered or anected. so maybe see it as overtopic or just a description of the nation.

its like a house. when you talk about a house, you know it has windows, some doors, walls etc.
and it doesnt matter how it looks like, but everyone knows what you are talking about.
i know its a strange example, but i want to explain why it is not that bad and sad when HRE is just called germany in the game

[Jarlabanke]

I'm not sure what Frank meant, but to my knowledge the HRE was called HRE in M:Tw.

[Nike]

I choose HRE! It sounds better!

[timurlenk]

ohhh, welcome to all nobles joining our correct name crusade!
:cheers: :hello: :hug:
thanks a lot!

(its our duty to improve the results of the pisa study in our countries :D )


@ frank fay
do you think people will not buy the game when there are correct names??? :confused:

[Vytis]

At first I wanted to jump on the 'let's call it HRE, there's no reason to dumb it down' bandwagon. But I see one problem: independent Austria, Bohemia, etc.

[Frujin]

OKay, seems I have to explain this and that. Uhm ... The problem is NOT really the name itself. Those of you, who program even a bit should know that the names finally are just a bunch of charaters. Change it is matter of less than minute.

So, we do not have technical problems here at all. Honestly, the problem is in HRE's complicated history and what HRE actually was. It never was a single kingdom or state or something. It was as you know kind of league of almost independant states. The Emperor himself was actually "elected" instead of "inherited". (Well, that was the idea). So, we have "another" level in the medieval hiererachy in case of HRE. As someone noticed here, simulating exact HRE "concept" in a game is not easy at all (unless the game is not soleley dedicated to do exacly this).

Also, HRE had some major and some minor states included in it's boundaries. So, we have two options:

1) To have all these Kingdoms as sperate states in KoH and let them act independantly. But in that case we are going to miss one actuall very powerful force in Central Europe.

2) To have all states forming HRE in a single faction, call it HRE and let it behave as one whole. In this case we would miss states like Bohemia for example (is that correct so far, Elewyn?).

So, we finally decided to make a compromise to have both. One single, powerful faction called Germany, which includes most of HRE. AND additionally independant states like Bohemia, Austria, Brandenburg, etc. It, of course, is not historically correct, but it is a game after all :) Also, if we go for history, than in Europe will exist really not that much factions as well :) HRE members are may be 50% of all Europe's Kingdoms, especially in high and late periods.

Oh, I forgot, we have vasssality as well. So, Bohemia for example, will start as vassal of Germany. But, it may claim independance anytime it finds suitable.

Please, if you see some weakness in what I'm saying, let me know - we really do care about that.

[Bora]

i dont have a problem with it. i will buy the game when the name of the country will be hre and i will buy it when the name of the country will be germany.
but i still think tahts to much trouble just for a name.
and i dont want to remember to a thread where someone complained about a wrong spelled word. so dont take that discussion here to seriouse ;)

[Elewyn]

First to @Bora. This is a bit diferent problem than "o" or "ou", so american/british spelling. Name of one of greatest powers of medieval era is little something else. But it's my subjective opinion, I know.
Originally posted by Frujin
So, we do not have technical problems here at all. Honestly, the problem is in HRE's complicated history and what HRE actually was. It never was a single kingdom or state or something. It was as you know kind of league of almost independant states. The Emperor himself was actually "elected" instead of "inherited". (Well, that was the idea). So, we have "another" level in the medieval hiererachy in case of HRE. As someone noticed here, simulating exact HRE "concept" in a game is not easy at all (unless the game is not soleley dedicated to do exacly this).

Also, HRE had some major and some minor states included in it's boundaries. So, we have two options:

1) To have all these Kingdoms as sperate states in KoH and let them act independantly. But in that case we are going to miss one actuall very powerful force in Central Europe.

2) To have all states forming HRE in a single faction, call it HRE and let it behave as one whole. In this case we would miss states like Bohemia for example (is that correct so far, Elewyn?).

So, we finally decided to make a compromise to have both. One single, powerful faction called Germany, which includes most of HRE. AND additionally independant states like Bohemia, Austria, Brandenburg, etc. It, of course, is not historically correct, but it is a game after all :) Also, if we go for history, than in Europe will exist really not that much factions as well :) HRE members are may be 50% of all Europe's Kingdoms, especially in high and late periods.

Oh, I forgot, we have vasssality as well. So, Bohemia for example, will start as vassal of Germany. But, it may claim independance anytime it finds suitable.

Please, if you see some weakness in what I'm saying, let me know - we really do care about that. Thanks for your explanation of devs' statement, Frujin. I think that diferent entry points can help a bit to this problem.

In the times of Frederick Barbarossa HRE can be taken far more as "ordinary medieval state" becasuse his rule and autority was very strong. So for the high medieval period there probably should be IMO one large empire, called Holy Roman Empire with no states such as Bohemia or Austria or Bavaria, because they were not as independent as in late medieval time, especially the german duchies(Bohemia is very complicated problem in HRE which is as a whole very complicated itself).

Then Late period should include states like Austria, Bohemia, Brandenburg etc. and those little states in.... yes, I don't know how to call it now :( but if they (Boh, Aust, Brand) will be vassals of that state, it's better to name it HRE of German nation, but in this option I am honestly more benevolent to call it Germany because there was nothing like this in history.

Forming of half-independent duchies/states in area of Germany is concerned with forming of kurfirsts=electors in 13th century.(kurfirsts, colegium of 7 "princes of the HRE" who had right to vote the kingof Rome-official title of "german" king, who may become emperor when got to Rome. Kurfirsts were made from court officials of HRE: archbishops of Trier, Mainz/Mayennce and Köln/Cologne, and king of Bohemia, marchgrave of Brandenburg, duke of Saxony and palatinus of Rhine). Vhen 2 other powerfull "princes", duke of Bavaria and duke of Austria were not one of kurfirsts, they got some other privilegues, but I'm not sure of it.

Bohemia is problem itself and I'll explain it somewhere else, more for volontiers, than for game interest. Here is a post (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?s=&postid=15815&highlight=Jaromir#post15815) where I try to explain relations between Bohemia and HRE through middle ages. Just to let you know.

Btw Emperor tried to suvereign over all european kings, but never succeded, his supremacy was only in region of HRE and Italy, little in Poland and Hungary, but not much

[Angryminer]

In my opinion the HRE should be symbolized by the vasallity of all included nations.
If the player chooses to play as Brandenburg he will automatically gain the title Emperor (I don't think this election-thing is really cool ingame) and all nations within the HRE should become his vasall (because he is the Emperor of the HRE). They will have to pay him tribute (because they are vasalls) and he can use this money to bribe them to obey his commands (this is already implemented and reflects history quite well).
The members of the HRE are able to fight each others and have their own mind.

All in all, this model suits history quite well and all parts are already implemented.
Of course this makes the HRE a very special playing-experience, but it might turn out to be a good challange for more experienced players.
Perhaps this model should only be used in late medieval-scenario, so unexperienced players can play "Germany" the incorrect but easier way.

I hope BSS will implement this, because I think it will be really nice to have to look after your vasalls to keep the HRE in one piece while managing foreign politics.
(if you are in need of a real challange)

Angryminer

[Backside]

If this country is connected with crusades, german caeser and Church it should be of course Holy Roman Empire, but if it's a normal country like France or Spain it should be named...Germany :].

But i' dont understand one thing. In the time Charles the Great ruling in France the Holy Romna Empire was the country on the top of today Italy and some of France and Germancy, and Germany was placed then beetwen Poland and France - they were different countries. But later the Germany were a little bit connected with HRE, because Germany ceaser had to be a lord of all catholic kings.

[Elewyn]

I like your concept, Angryminer. Chose Brandenburg, become emperor automatically. And my suggestion for this, you'll get some crown lands (realms where no powerfull ducha was, so this mean: Lorraine, Alsace, Württamberg and Franconia if following my concept of german realms) to prevent being weaker than your vasals like duke of Austria or Bohemia, who have 2-3realms).

But when chosing Brandenburg(or Bohemia, Austria, Nassau, Pfalz, Bavaria, Switzerland, Saxony or Pommerania) you will have option to chose between vasality to HRE or being emperor. If you want to be "only" an emperor(like "play for Germany"), you will have only "crown lands" and vasals will pay you some good taxes.

This for Late medieval entry point (in HRE and maybe in high entry point in France?), in other entry points, HRE will be simply kingdom like other ones on map and if in high entry point Italy and Burgundy (in area of today's southeast France and Switzerland) will be independent nations, they would be vassals of HRE.

It does make sense to me, however I'm not sure if it's not too complicaated :( to be done in short time. And it should be called Holy Roman Empire in game and when choosing the nation also Germany, as I described above.
Originally posted by Backside
If this country is connected with crusades, german caeser and Church it should be of course Holy Roman Empire, but if it's a normal country like France or Spain it should be named...Germany :].

But i' dont understand one thing. In the time Charles the Great ruling in France the Holy Romna Empire was the country on the top of today Italy and some of France and Germancy, and Germany was placed then beetwen Poland and France - they were different countries. But later the Germany were a little bit connected with HRE, because Germany ceaser had to be a lord of all catholic kings. In times of Charles the Great there was no Germany. Let's have a look here: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0800.htm
Charles was king of Franks and "Roman emperor". After division east Frankisch empire became "regnum teutonicum" and in 962 its king Otto became "Roman Emperor" again. Frederick Barbarossa added "Holy" there, so "Holy Roman Emperor, ruling area of Germany, Austria, Poland, Czech rep. Poland(part), the Netherlands(Holland), Belgium, Luxembourg, France (eastern part), Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Italy and Slovenia. He added word "Holy" to point out his supremacy upon pope.

Unfortunately it never was like other normal countries :(

[timurlenk]

oh god, how sophisticated...
:D


thanks frujin for your detailed answer!
as i see, its very very difficult to assemble the hre in the game. yes, it was very weird at that time...


i have to say, i like angryminer 's way! if its possible to do it this way, it would be really great! (and represent it the best way)

i also like elewyns idea to choose if you want to become kaiser / emperor / caesar or stay as vasall (and maybe later get independent). maybe its not necessary to use "crown lands" - its more challenging without...

@ elewyn
yes, austria got some privelegs, wrote down in the "privilegium minus". (no details here ;) )



last but not least:
whatever realms remain to build the hre, lets call it hre.

:scratch: which realms are intended to be idenpendent to date?

[Elewyn]

Sorry but I didn't get in last two sentences :( Can you explain it to less skilled in english?

The idea of "crown lands" was to ensure you more power. When all your vasals kick you off and unite togeeher against you, playing originaly for Brandenburg or Bavaria, you'll have one realm against 16 :( And as an emperor you should not rely on only one realm. What if it get conquered? Too easy to destroy the emperor-every your vassal, especialy Bohemian and Austrian, will have enough power.

At least Franconia should be one of crown lands, maybe all those which are not in list of "nations wanted"(all written above) in another thread here.

Sorry for one quite "old" comment I forgot to post...
Originally posted by Bora
ok as example: france was always france (except in the roman time or earlier) the same with england. and it doesnt absoluty no matter what regions/kingdoms that nation had conquered or anected. so maybe see it as overtopic or just a description of the nation.
But Spain in KoH is divided into Castille, Aragon and maybe also Navarre and Granade.

So "normal" guy won't understand what is it? I guess that most of us agree that Spain should not be in KoH

But here is something to more "actual" problem with how to find solution? I made a map for late and high medieval HRE as pictures for my posts above.
map of HRE (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt166a4e104c354bf6.jpg)

In left map Bohemia is potential vasal state. I don't think it's necessary to have Bohemia as vasal of HRE, because HRE was much stronger and Bohemia much weaker than in late period, Kingdoms of Burgundy and Italy should be IMO vasal states (if they are in)

In right one Franconia, Pfalz, Lorraine, Wurttemberg and Alsace are "crown lands"

[Frujin]

Guys, may be I didn't explained well. We do not have Kingdom in Kingdom in KoH. What "entities" we support are: Independant Kingdoms and Vassal Kingdoms. The engine do not support for example State caller HRE and INSIDE it's borders another state Bohemia, which is Vassal of HRE, or what ever. The Borders of states in KoH can't overlap.

[Elewyn]

I didn't mean it that way.

But to explain it properly:
Let's have possibility to play for 1) HRE, 2) it's vasals(Bavaria, Austria, Bohemia etc. in late or Burgundy and Italy in high) which are not part of it.
When chose HRE, you will have "crown lands" and other "members" will be your vasals (not inside your kingdom).
When you chose vassal states like for example Bavaria, you will have two options:
1) play as vasal of HRE (consisting of 5 crown realms)
2) play for personal union of Bavaria and HRE, so ruling Bavaria and Crown lands (HRE) and other "historical members of HRE" will be your vasals.

Sorry if our attempts of suggesting went too far :(

[Angryminer]

I'd like to explain that with Elewyn's maps...
For example: the right one (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt166a4e104c354bf6.jpg)
If the player decides to play as HRE, he will then be prompted to choose the Emperor (for example: Brandenburg).
After this, the Emperor's lands (and lesser independent lands) are called HRE (ie: Lorraine, Pfalz, Alsace, Würtemberg and Franconia). Brandenburg will also turn into "HRE" because it is led in personal union by the Emperor (see above).
But the HRE does not include Friesland, Saxony, Nassau, Pomerania, Bohemia, Bavaria or Austria.
These nations turn into Vasalls of HRE.
From your comments on these forums this means:
They have to pay taxes to the Emperor.
They can break vasallisation. (Symbolizes leaving of the HRE)
They have their own minds ("No, I don't want to participate in this war!"), and have to be bribed with the above explained taxes (suits history quite well!).
They can have own alliances and participate in own wars or even fight each other.

The HRE does not appear in full size on the map. Saxony, Friesland, Pommerania, Nassau, Bohemia, Bavaria and Austria remain independent on the map. The politic-map however will reveal the full size of the HRE (and it's weakness).

I hope it is clearer now.

@Elewyn:
- These maps are pretty cool!
- Sorry for double-explanation, but I just wanted to give an example.

Angryminer

[Frank Fay]

What Veso meant is that the game does not support this. We had to find for every nation / faction an equal solution. There are Kingdoms and there are realms. Other kingdoms can become vassall.

A vassall is independent and pays tribute to its overloard. He can not make alliances with others.

But once you are vassall you are still the kingdom you were before...

[Angryminer]

"He can not make alliances with others."
Even better, I was hoping so originally ;) .

Please notice that in my example Saxony is just a vasall. It is never shown as part of the HRE, and in fact it just looks like it isn't part of the HRE. It is just a vasall of the HRE. No more.

There is nothing like overlapping borders or kingdom-in-kingdom in my example. That is the reason why this model suits so well. Easy to implement and yet accurate.

You may PM me if you want me to write a more destinct example.

Angryminer

[Frujin]

Well, what IS HRE then? The player can play with (let's say) Brandenburg and this state IS called Brandenburg. Not HRE. Please, understand what we did - we joined all smaller and/or not-so-independant states into one big called Germany. The rest (biggest, most independant) exists with their own names and are VASSALS of Germany. Simple, fair enough, well balanced for the player to "feel" the huge power of HRE existing in Cewntral Europe.

We just got rid of name HRE. But you can "think" of HRE as Germany + it's vassal states.

[Angryminer]

I don't know if I got you right, so I try to rephrase it the way I understood it:
The less independent states of the HRE (in Elewyn's right map: Lorraine, Pfalz, Würtemberg, Franconia and Alsace) are now labeled "Germany" and the more independent (in Elewyn's right map: Friesland, Saxony, Nassau, Brandenburg, Pomerania, Bohemia, Austria, Bavaria) are vasalls of Germany?

Then I really missunderstood you.
I thought you labeled the nation "Germany" because it's a loose/inaccure representation of "a nation between France and Poland" and not worth the name "Holy Roman Empire" (because this includes a complicated system of vasallities).

But in fact you have a wonderfull representation of the HRE's inner politics, but stick with the name "Germany" though the crafted nation would perfectly suit the name "Holy Roman Empire", because someone might not know the HRE.
Am I right?

Angryminer