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Elewyn
05-07-2004, 11:31
maybe you had a memory lapse :cool:.. I was for HRE, not against it.
So, then I am happy that your expectation of me being very unhapy made you happy eventhough you wanted the same like me...
:cheers:

farewell
Ben Nevis
05-07-2004, 17:03
Too bad. Me and my fellow Dutchies will be subjected to the Germans. As if we haven't been subjected to the Germans enough already (remember '40-'45 and '74 of course :) )
Bora
05-07-2004, 19:37
i dont know if the most of you understands frank statement, i just hope.
as i sayd: for me the name "germany" is ok. as a fact the you rewrite story of medieval and not replay it, youi can see it from staht side that in this cae story of HRE has been rewritten and it has just been called Germany instead of HRE. So see it from the positiv and happy side and say: "its just a name"
yes unhappy and pesimistic people can say "well, then you also could call it gondor"
but isay then: "germany is in that case more reslistic, because taht name exists in reality"
so i hope you guys taske it from the good side. the game will be to good to judge it only by this lname.

by the way. if the game will be modable you still can change it by yourself ;)
Finellach
05-07-2004, 21:17
Greece also existes in "reality" and Byzntine is not named Greece is it?
Ledhead
06-07-2004, 18:26
Greece also existes in "reality" and Byzntine is not named Greece is it?

Actually Byzantium is also wrong...
And why name it Greece when it was the Roman Empire. Unlike HRE that first and foremost was German, and HRE more of an honorary title only sometimes vaguely recoginzed to it's name by other catholic rulers. HRE is a title more used in rethoric to polemize with the true emperor in Constantinople and the orthodox.
Sure that all the Byzantine emperors are of Greek origin during the KoH timespan, but that doesn't mean that they are of Greek culture. The Byzantines were a mix of many cultures, from a certain point in time ruled by a Greek speaking emperor, that's all.
Angryminer
06-07-2004, 21:51
Holy Roman Empire just rhetoric?
I really can't state that.
The first german-nationalistic feelings came up about 1813, according to my history book.
The term "german" existed before, but it was the name of a tribe of people, not of a nation. Or would you call "Caucasian" a nation?
(Genetically I'm a Caucasian)

Angryminer
Ledhead
06-07-2004, 21:59
So what were the people living there called, Holyromanemirians? And what language did they speak Holyromanempirian?
Haven't checked any English written books about the early history of the German lands, but I'm pretty sure the name "German" and "Germany" is used telling the history before 1813... :)
Angryminer
06-07-2004, 22:39
The Holy Roman Empire wasn't a nation like France was. It was an organisation above all those smaller nations.
The people were called bavarians, swabians, pommeranians, etc. etc.
Or they were called Germans. But then you didn't refer to the region or country "Germany" but to the people which were called "Germans", much like you call Caucasians "Caucasians".

Angryminer
Finellach
06-07-2004, 23:07
Germans were a community of people or tribes. Swabians, Bavarians, Saxons they were all Germans. Hell even Danes, Swedes, etc. were Germans.
Sir Turylon
06-07-2004, 23:25
So what were the people living there called, Holyromanemirians? And what language did they speak Holyromanempirian?
Haven't checked any English written books about the early history of the German lands, but I'm pretty sure the name "German" and "Germany" is used telling the history before 1813... :)


easy, as Finellach and Angryminer said...

they went by their provinces. IE, Saxon, Bavarian.. etc.

when the nation states began to form up.. they still went by their provinces... but all were part of the Holy Roman Empire... still....

language? easy.
Latin.

the term German did not refer to Germany at this time. It refered to the people that spoke German... IE, Germanic tribes. Germany was a term which in modern terms would be best portrayed as "America." It was not denotating one nation.. rather an area, and the people living there. (same with the adjective German, really).

So.. in reality... it would be okay for it to be called Germany.... since the area in KoH is that of the Germans. So :cheers: to the devs for getting it rhetorically correct if not politically and historically correct. :)
Finellach
06-07-2004, 23:42
Yes it would be correct to call the german duchies and states "Germany" but it would be and it is wrong to call whole empire germany since it included Italy(northern), Arles(Burgundy - western France), Low Countries(Netherlands, Belgium), Bohemia and Moravia(Czech Rep.), etc...

And that is what bothers me the most, not the name Germany itself.
Prins_v_Brabant
06-07-2004, 23:45
Germany didn't even exsists in the Medieval, but the Holy Roman Empire was. ''Germany'' is a collectorsname of dozens of small kingdoms, dukedoms and bishoprics. The Holy Roman Empire was made after the dead of Charel The Great. Otto the Great current king of Germany received support from the Pope to be elected as emperor of The HRE, after his victory on the Magiars from Rumania who threatened Western Europe. So the king of Germany became emperor of the Holy Roman Empire

Originally posted by Frank Fay
But putting history knowledge aside. Would you find it as a "normal" customer not strange seeing "Holy Roman Empire of xy nation"? Wouldnt you think "What the heck are the Romans do in a medieval game"?

I think you didn't understand the word ''roman" here. it doesn't mean the great civilisation, the senate, the legions, Julius Ceasar blabla. it means ''roman'' in the way of Rome, the city, home town of the clergy and the the leader of the ruling religion in Europe.

The term Germany wasn't even known in those days, so this little Brabantian prince has voted also for Holy Roman Empire instead of Germany.
Ledhead
07-07-2004, 01:00
The precise term Holy Roman Empire is only accurate from 1254, that's halfway through the game!
But why be so picky with history... :yawn:
Finellach
07-07-2004, 01:39
Well Germany is only accurate after 1820 which is almost 500 years after the latest starting point. :D
Sir Turylon
07-07-2004, 04:37
Charelemange was also called the Holy Roman Emperor. the pope declared him that after he crushed the Lombard League. (His kingdom even extended down through Italy)

Here's the devs point. In order to put HRE in, they would have had to eliminate several other beginning "kingdoms." The HRE would have too strong of a starting kingdom. So, they took what the duchies and provinces were called "The German States" and linked it to the general term for the people ONLY in those areas as... "Germany." Perhaps, if your conquer all of the rest of the HRE states... an little message pops up going.. "do you wish to be the Holy Roman Emperor?" If you have enough piety... pope crowns you.. and you can then go and invade France. :go:
Angryminer
07-07-2004, 11:56
I already said twice or more often, that I'd wather want the current "Germany" renamed to "Holy Roman Empire" with the rest of it as vasalls than the term "Germany" in the game. There are some more suggestions I made to avoid the term "Germany".
But I see that this discussion begins to become repitive. In the future I won't answer posts that contain statements I already answered.

Angryminer
Ledhead
07-07-2004, 13:14
I already said twice or more often, that I'd wather want the current "Germany" renamed to "Holy Roman Empire" with the rest of it as vasalls than the term "Germany" in the game. There are some more suggestions I made to avoid the term "Germany".
But I see that this discussion begins to become repitive. In the future I won't answer posts that contain statements I already answered.

Angryminer

Agree totally!
I won't say a third time that HRE isn't historically correct until 1254... :rolleyes:
Sir Turylon
07-07-2004, 19:57
Agree totally!
I won't say a third time that HRE isn't historically correct until 1254... :rolleyes:

:rofl:
so. Richard Sullivan, Dennis Sherman and John Harrison are wrong in their book.... "Short history of Western Europe" where it says that Otto was crowned Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in 962 AD... and the Holy Roman Empire, which was what the German and Italian states combined under the HRE government, in 1190 AD .... are wrong...

BTW... the title German King was used...
Prins_v_Brabant
07-07-2004, 20:50
Originally posted by Sir Turylon
:rofl:
so. Richard Sullivan, Dennis Sherman and John Harrison are wrong in their book.... "Short history of Western Europe" where it says that Otto was crowned Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in 962 AD... and the Holy Roman Empire, which was what the German and Italian states combined under the HRE government, in 1190 AD .... are wrong...

BTW... the title German King was used...

I think you are absolutelly right, and I disagree with Ledhead
Ledhead
07-07-2004, 21:16
:rofl:
so. Richard Sullivan, Dennis Sherman and John Harrison are wrong in their book.... "Short history of Western Europe" where it says that Otto was crowned Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in 962 AD... and the Holy Roman Empire, which was what the German and Italian states combined under the HRE government, in 1190 AD .... are wrong...

BTW... the title German King was used...

Yes they are! As you yourself stated, their book is a short history. They didn't bother with the details :hello:
Charlemagne to Otto the Great used the title Imperator Augustus.
Wonder what Ottos title was before he was crowned emperor in 962?
The names Roman Empire and Holy Empire have been used in the earlier centurys but HRE is not correct until 1254.