holy roman empire vs. germany

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Vytis
Actually the arguments given in this statement are against calling it HRE. Finellach was talking about historical HRE. In this game it's gonna be quite the opposite : it will not be multicultural and it will not have huge number of other dutchies and counties. Austria, Bohemia, etc. will be independant countries.

Not quite. The argument is quite clear and is indisputable. Also Bohemian and Austria will definately going to be vassals to HRE as they were in reality and historicly not independant. Not to mention Italy, Burgundy and bunch of German duchies that were manged almost as separate countries like Saxony, Swabia, Bavaria, Brandenburg, Lower and Upper Lorraine, Franconia, etc...

[Elewyn]

The whole thing now is about HRE or Germany in late period 1350. In both 1000 and 1200 there can't be anything like Germany. I can imagine only HRE in those periods.

[Cork2]

This is a game not the real history. It doesn't need to be accurate down to the tiniest detail like names. Leave it as Germany. I rather play as germany then hre anywho, since i am from germany. :):cheers:

[Finellach]

Yes you would, but someone else wouldn't. If the tiniest detalis won't be correct then what can we except from some other more "important details"? ;)

Germany at that time, literally, didn't exist and that is a fact and so having "Germany" at that time(even in the 1350 period) is wrong...at least for me. I am not from Germany, but I do have ancestry from there...namely Swabia not Germany. ;) :p

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Cork2
This is a game not the real history. It doesn't need to be accurate down to the tiniest detail like names. Leave it as Germany. I rather play as germany then hre anywho, since i am from germany. :):cheers:

traitor on your own history! ;) (well, excusable since you live in texas now :D )


it seems that this issue doesnt come to an end...

[shagrath_the_dead]

just for the info,a couple post on the first page includes the lands:
brabant
friesland

those to lands are provinces of the netherlands
:D

[Cork2]

ITs a game for crying out loud how does that make me a traitor for wanting to play germany in the game? I want this game to be fun not a history lesson.

[timurlenk]

he cork2, look at the ;)


btw, why the hell its a history lesson when using correct names? its a game, it will never be a history lesson :cheers:

[Finellach]

Shagrat aren't those Belgian provinces...especially Brabant. ;)

Cork2 you can always "create" Germany out of HRE. :)

[shagrath_the_dead]

Originally posted by Finellach
Shagrat aren't those Belgian provinces...especially Brabant. ;)

Cork2 you can always "create" Germany out of HRE. :)

nope,there dutch :)

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Cork2
This is a game not the real history. It doesn't need to be accurate down to the tiniest detail like names. Leave it as Germany. I rather play as germany then hre anywho, since i am from germany. :):cheers: I don't think that name of a state in area of Germany, Low countries, Italy, Austria, Switzerland and France is just tiny and unimportant detail.

Yes, fun is over accuracy in KoH, but if inacuracy kills fun, I am aggainst it.

This is a game about medieval times, it can't be historical lesson, but using right names and having some short comments is not history lesson, but something I would like to call: "playing a game and getting some new things to know" if somebody doesn't know it yet..

I understand that most of gamers in age of 10-18 years don't know what HolyRomanEmpire is, but many gamers in age of 16+ know it. And for many of us this kind of inaccuracy destroys the fun a little, for those younger and not so educated guys not, because they can read some very short article explaining why it's HRE instead of Germany and then they will know what it is about. Why not educate by a game? There are many other things that many of young guys (and also older ones) don't know, like that Lithuania was pagan also in 1350, Wales was not part of England before 13th century, that there was no state called Russia in middle ages, but Kiev or Novgorod or Mocsovian Rus, that muslims ruled over half of Iberian peninsula and nobody complains of it.

It will be embarassing for me as Czech to play for Bohemia-vassal of Germany. That happened only in 1938-1945 during nazi regime in Germany. Monarchy with universal claims is far different from national(istic) state.

Also when in entry point of 1350 HRE/Germany will have Austria, Bohemia, Brandenburg etc. as its vassals, there still will be Lorraine as part of it, the same with areas west of rhine which are half(at least) French, so not only german areas, so this weaken arguments for "Germany" also in 1350 IMO. I don't doubt that in 1000 and 1200 HRE was universal enough to not be called Germany

@Shagrath_the_dead, Friesland is for sure in the Netherlands(Holland) today. Brabant is divided between Belgium and the Netherlands, main part in Belgium IMO.

[Bora]

sounds strange, but maybe there should be a option where the player can choose between HRE and Germany. almost like to enter the palyers name in some games.

[Finellach]

Originally posted by shagrath_the_dead
nope,there dutch :)

Well then you are wrong. Perhaps today one small part of what was once Brabant belongs to Holland, but that is mainly Belgian province. The proof alone is that royal Belgian CoA is the identical(the same) as that of Brabant. ;)

[Elewyn]

He's as wrong as you are. Friesland has nothing to do with Belgium since it's between Germany and the Netherlands.

Brabant is in both Netherlands(Holland) and Belgium. Main part of historical Brabant is in Belgium, but since he asked about both Friesland and Brabant he's closer to truth.

Yes, capital of Belgium also is capital of Brabant, but northern part (1/5?) of Brabant is in the Netherlands

[Finellach]

I was talking about Brabant thus I don't see how I am wrong...

[Elewyn]

sure?
your words:Shagrat aren't those Belgian provinces...especially Brabant yes, I see "especially Brabant", but I also see word "those" instead of only "Brabant" ;)

and his questionjust for the info,a couple post on the first page includes the lands:
brabant
friesland

those to lands are provinces of the netherlands

and here are provinces of Kingdom of the Netherlands:
Administrative divisions:
12 provinces (provincies, singular - provincie); Drenthe, Flevoland, Friesland, Gelderland, Groningen, Limburg, Noord-Brabant, Noord-Holland, Overijssel, Utrecht, Zeeland, Zuid-Holland

found here (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/nl.html#Govt);)

[Finellach]

I am quite sure. I was talking about Brabant for the whole time thats why "especially Brabant". I don't know where Friesland is and honestly I don care(no offence Shagrat) and for Friesland I stand corrected, but as I said I never meant anything about Friesland since I was talking about Brabant.

Also what you mentioned there are administrative provinces. We in Croatia also have Vukovarsko-Srijemska Zupanija, but that doesn't mean Sirmium is in Croatia. Yes truth to be told one small western part is, but Sirmium is mostly in Vojvodina(Serbia and Montenegro) as are it's main administrative centers thus I can't say Sirmium is "Croatian province" just like you and Shagrat can't say Brabant is Dutch province because it is not.

[shagrath_the_dead]

so,i am right :)

[Finellach]

Originally posted by shagrath_the_dead
so,i am right :)

Well if Brabant is in Belgium then I don't know how you can be right. ;)

[Nicmaster]

May I vote in this thread again????