holy roman empire vs. germany

[Elewyn]

Frederick Barbarossa must have turned in his grave (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//english/screenshot.php?screenshot=0142&all=0146|0145|0144|0143|0142|0141|0140|0139|0138)

[Angryminer]

I didn't notice the "Emperor ... of Germany". Now I'm crushed.

Angryminer

[Sir Turylon]

hahahah...

so true.

I can hear him uttering some sort of insult in latin.

[HappyAdolf]

No, not Latin:D
Pleeease not:D
But he really turns in his grave...
one day he will turn to a zombie and kill the devs!:D

[Kuno of Gersenau]

Seems that it's over...

Hope Frujin finds some time in the next days to explain it...

[Elewyn]

ultimately it looks that Frujin has some time now... so....

Give us the last hit, hit of mercy, and some explanation...please. Yes, We'll wait, of course :)

just to remind

[timurlenk]

i guess he is afraid of us :viking:

come on, fruijin - face up the battle and prove yourself as knight of honour :p

[d'Honaire]

I thought that the HRE was agreed upon?:cheers:

[Angryminer]

All the users in this topic want "Holy Roman Empire", but the devs want "Germany".
And we're sitting here, waving our hands, to make one of the devs explain to us why they want Germany ;) .

Angryminer

[Ledhead]

I don't want it to be HRE...:o
King of THE Germans!

[Angryminer]

And what's with the netherlands?
Declare them german?
I can see your mighty empire break apart from the many revolts caused by the netherlands ;) .

Angryminer

[Elewyn]

not the Netherlands, but Dutch. The people. Not even a word about the Flemish

[Ledhead]

Actually Dutch is roughly a low-german dialect. So they're kinda German, at least in the Middle Ages.
Btw i think you confuse todays Germany and Germans with what was actually parts of the Kingdom of the Germans in the Middle Ages. All dukes and prinses etc had a vote whos to be elected King o the Germans. The elected king could then be crowned HRE by the pope.
IIRC I've already posted about this in this thread before...:rolleyes:

[Finellach]

Germany didn't existed in that period thus there can't be "Kingdom of Germany". Also even if we decide to call the germans states Germany it would incorrect to call the whole state Germany since it covered Italy, Burgundy and Low Countries along with Bohemia.

[Ledhead]

Is anyone arguing for "Kingdom of Germany"?

[Finellach]

You said you want 'King of Germans' so I am asking you: what would this 'King of Germans' rule? Germany?

Let me give you another example. Bulgarian King Simeon proclaimed himself Emperor of Bulgarians and Greeks does this means there was Kngdom/Empire of Greece? ;)

[Ledhead]

I'm aguing for the name "Kingdom of THE Germans".
The first German prince of the German princes, elected by those who had the right to vote for the King title. That may not have been any city-states in Italy and bohemia, but that's beside the point. You cannot confuse todays Germany with the territory that the King of the Germans then, in the Middle Ages, ruled. He ruled over territorys that were not German, I know, but that's not the point!
You have to let go of todays view of nations that are very homogenous compared to those times.

[Michel]

Hi, my suggest to devide the areal 'germany' in smaller or right lands, hzm(in english: duchies), and marks is not only correct, its a so easy solution!

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I read now in the english forum that most are also how I against HRE, because it wasnt a nation, on the map it isnt HRE and so on.

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An other point is the balancing. I understand it, but why can I so hugh spot bring a good balancing, if all other areas a enourmos smaller? Ok, it must have his reason, but which?

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If you look on the medievial europe map in the early year 1000a.d. you will see that also the areas france and spain are devided! Why not the german speaking area?
Its so easy, in my thought.

If you devided 'G' in: dutchy sax(Sachsen), Mark Lausitz,
Hzm(dutchy) Schwaben, Hzm. Bayern, Hzm. Kärnten(Carinthia), Ostarrichi can be let at 1000, at this time I think it was to small to give a good game bal..

These countries are big enough for a good game playing, I hope so.

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I understand if the map isnt historical correct, but at this point where is the disadvantage?

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@Leadhead: "Kingdom of the germans"

hm, its so very hard to find a suitable name if these area will be so.

anyway a very strange name, but you see the naming for this area is strange.

you can say, it was a kingdom like a imperium, because it wasnt.

you can say long time period they was fighting each other( I write it so common).

you can say other areas where at later time also sperman speaking areas like Prußen-->Preußen(correct not at 1000).

;but the area which is on the map is really a german speaking area( dont think that netherland exist, it was more Gft. Flandern(in the gamemap to 'G', think it was part of kinkdom france, and nieder(lower) Lothringen(think it was part of Hzm Sachsen).

Then yes, you can say "Kingdom of Germans", or "german speaking areal"(what a stupid thinkname).


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Then why not??, France is devided, Spain, and england is also devided. (england in so little places?, thought kingdom england, kingdom scotland, irokeltic kingdom, wales is small enough, Im sure there is a reason, and so on also perhaps a understandable 'G' reason).

Why not also with 'Germany'. Where's the difficulty?

If there is any enormous problem, I think everybody will understand this.

Ok thanks.

Ps.: It dont belong to that, but Im glad that there arent showsreens, there are good sreens with menu and so on, that you can get a good imagine about the game.

[Angryminer]

While I wanted to answer Michels post I found some statements of Frujin from march this year:We just got rid of name HRE. But you can "think" of HRE as Germany + it's vassal states."The reason is that If we name Germany to HRE then it will look wierd to have all other kingdoms OUTSIDE (even as vassals).Let's rephrase this:
"If 'The nation called Germany', Bohemia, Helvetia and the italian realms together are the Holy Roman Empire, whats 'the nation called Germany' then?"
It can't be the Holy Roman Empire, because it doesn't match the borders of the HRE.

I guess they wanted to craft a big nation within the boarders of the HRE to have the power of the HRE in the game, without having to place a nation called "Holy Roman Empire" that doesn't match the exact borders of the HRE.

Perhaps Frujin is so nice to comment this with a 'yes'/'no' ;) .

However, in my opinion the division of 'the nation called Germany' into various vasall-states to the nation called "Holy Roman Empire" (which is extremely small in size) is still the best solution, because it still shows the great power of the Holy Roman Empire, but also shows it's fragility.

Alternatively the HRE should be completely removed and all small nations within the HRE are vasalls to 'whoever was emperor in the entry-point'. So the "What's HRE?" discussion becomes completely obsolete, because the HRE doesn't show on the game-map (like it is now).

Angryminer

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Ledhead
I'm aguing for the name "Kingdom of THE Germans".
The first German prince of the German princes, elected by those who had the right to vote for the King title. That may not have been any city-states in Italy and bohemia, but that's beside the point. You cannot confuse todays Germany with the territory that the King of the Germans then, in the Middle Ages, ruled. He ruled over territorys that were not German, I know, but that's not the point!
You have to let go of todays view of nations that are very homogenous compared to those times.

He ruled over Italy, Burgundy and Bohemia as King of Italy, Bohemia and Burgundy not as 'King of Germans'. Also there was no "Kingdom of Germans" since Germany was at that time divided into various duchies and states like Saxony, Brandenburg, Franconia, Thuringia, Bavaria, Swabia, Austria, etc...
'King of Germans' was basiclly a title that we could calle 'Emeperor elect(ed)'.

I agree with Angryminer. "Germany" should be divided into vassals states united in some sort of federation and should be called HRE...it is my opinion this would be the closest to the truth.