holy roman empire vs. germany

[Angryminer]

No one says that we shouldn't have "Roman Empire" in the early entrypoint.
The closer to histroy the better.
(nearly)

Angryminer

[Ledhead]

No one says that we shouldn't have "Roman Empire" in the early entrypoint.
The closer to histroy the better.
(nearly)

Angryminer

I agree! Take out the name "Byzantium" (as not a single realm or ruler refered to it as Byzantium!) and replace it with the Roman Empire!

[Finellach]

In 1254 we for the first time have the term "Holy Roman Empire of the German nation". Before that it was Holy Roman Empire.

[Emhyr var Emreis]

Sorry guys, I don't want to offend anybody, but Leadhead is right in this!

It was so called "Roman Empire" (illegaly, coz the right one was in Greece and Turkey ruled by the Greeks and Armenians*-Byzantine emperors) in times of Charlemagne (after 800) and Ottons (962-1004 I guess)
in 1158 Frederick Barbarossa med it "Holy Empire" (with making Charlemagne saint)
in 1254 it became "Holy Roman Empire"
Holy Roman Empire of German nation was a question of 16th century

but this doesn't meanI think Germany is better than HRE. I am or HRE

*many byzantine nobles, some of them even became emperors, were of Armenian origin, what a pity that Armenia today is so small country without any access to the sea.

[Ledhead]

In 1254 we for the first time have the term "Holy Roman Empire of the German nation". Before that it was Holy Roman Empire.

I'm sure that you are wrong.
I found my information on www.heraldica.org
Here: The official name of the HRE (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/hre.htm#Name)

[Sir Turylon]

FYI. they didn't leave any details out. believe me.. They also sited other more in depth works on the matter...

Wonder what Ottos title was before he was crowned emperor in 962?
hmm, maybe.. Mr Otto? :)

quote directly from the website ledhead posted.
n 962 Otto I the Great reclaimed the imperial dignity which had lost all prestige and was conferred by popes on bit players in Italian politics. This is usually taken to be the founding date of the Holy Roman Empire

so.. founding of HRE was in 962 regardless of what its official name was. :)


regardless.. it won't be in.

[Ledhead]

FYI. they didn't leave any details out. believe me.. They also sited other more in depth works on the matter...


hmm, maybe.. Mr Otto? :)

quote directly from the website ledhead posted.


so.. founding of HRE was in 962 regardless of what its official name was. :)


regardless.. it won't be in.

Weel they failed to give the details about the historical way to the HRE, or didn't you read their work to the last letter? For I can't see how they are so thorough with their in depth knowledge and still they got it wrong...
Or is their some kind of prestige in this matter now?
Or are you dismissing the Heraldica page as phony?
Coz in that case I'll be happy to tell Heraldica that they should check their sources better before making uneducated people like me cite them and making a fool out of my self with wrong facts...
Although I've taken a great interest in this topic along the way, I really don't want to read the book for myself. So if you have the possibility scan the page with the right facts please do so and share! Or cite them.

As for your other point...
Well...after all this posting I can't be careless with the facts. No "regardless" for me, no HRE until 1254!
And I must add that the primary reason for me being so stubborn about all this is that I think that after 324 AD everything other called "Roman" than the Empire ruled from Constantinople are ursurpers and fake, trying to gain prestige and glory from ancient Rome (See my signature!). It can then of course be discussed until when. My personal standpoint is at least 1204 without a doubt. Others say after the rule of Justinian in 565, others after Heracleius 635 (IIRC) and others 1453...

About Ottos title before he was Emperor. Wasn't he king?

[Sir Turylon]

you are arguing the name.

we are arguing the time the empire began... not when the name HRE came into official records.. lol.

besides... Frederick I ruled over the HRE, even if it was not officially called HRE. Why? because HRE was really just a title placed on a weak form of controling government....


Weel they failed to give the details about the historical way to the HRE, or didn't you read their work to the last letter? For I can't see how they are so thorough with their in depth knowledge and still they got it wrong...

have you read the book? no. stop stop critiquing something you haven't read.

The book does not have all of the history of the HRE in ONE chapter. It is spread out from Greek era all the way through to the 1800s.

:cheers: to "Kingdom of Germany" lol.

[Angryminer]

I see that the devs strongly reject "Holy Roman Empire", so I'd like to express that I might be able to settle down with "Empire or the Germans". I guess the term "German" is a necessary evil in the eyes of the devs, so I have to get used to the idea.
The term "Empire" shows that this country isn't one country, but a collection of several states. The more I think about it the better the compromise seems to be, though I still want to note, that there was no such thing and that it's histrocally wrong. But at least it's closer to the truth than "Germany".

Angryminer

[Ledhead]

I was actually arguing the official birth of the term HRE, and Heraldica and other sources gives the answer 1254...
And I'm also arguing the "legitimacy" of the Empire. This is of course more or less a subjective matter. Although it's beyond me how someone can argue that the kingdom of Otto can have anything to being Roman...

About the book again. I am asking you, who read the book obviously, to clarify what the authors wrote about the topic. As you weigh your arguments for the HRE of that book. And I get my facts from Heraldica, among other sources. I'm simply trying to compare sources.
And why are you so upset with that? When you cite a source that is in oposition to my source I simply want to find out who is right.
But please comment on what you thought of Heraldica! I'm sorry if my English makes you think that I'm simply trying to pick a fight. I want to settle the matter, that's all.

I think Fredrick claimed to rule a Roman Empire. Not the HRE per se.
Still, 1254...I will not let this fact go until you prove me wrong.

I agree with your conclusion Angryminer about the Empire.
As for the name. The realm had more than one name during these centurys so it's hard to say what's more right then the other. My view is that "HRE" is so late historicaly in the game that it shouldn't be used. And this is not only others that called them this and then that. It is them, themselves, that starts to use HRE 1254.
The real dilemma in this namedistortion discussion is that there is a Byzantium, that no one refered to as Byzantium...but it's probably too late to start a thread about that...
And I think it'll have even a less following for a Byzantium to Roman Empire change then KGD of Germany to HRE change...

[Finellach]

I think that the main problem Frank(or was it Frujin?) stated was the lenght of the name. So they decided to place shorter "Germany".

[Ledhead]

I think that the main problem Frank(or was it Frujin?) stated was the lenght of the name. So they decided to place shorter "Germany".

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that we can't argue the facts! :)
Some are very emotionaly attached to the HRE and just won't let it go no matter what the historical facts are.
But for gamesame reasons I'd like the possibility to crate a HRE, just come down to Constantinople and get the purple slippers! :angry:
Or some other requirement...conquer Italy and Jerusalem or something, defeat the Byzantines and make them recognize your claim...I for one hope that this will not be just a conquer-the-whole-world game...
Then it should also be possible as Byzantine make the German emperor or the pope to recognize the supremacy of the emperor in Constantinople.

[Sir Turylon]

And why are you so upset with that? When you cite a source that is in oposition to my source I simply want to find out who is right.

nobody is upset. (except maybe Barbarossa when he finds out his Holy Roman German Empire is being called Germany.. AHH!, Teutons attack!) :go:

The Roman Empire in the west fell, then was revived... in "title and theory" when Charlemange was crowned Imperator Augustus by the Pope. right? The Carolingian kingdom fractured, and the eastern part was absorbed into what was to become the HRE. The HRE was never very strong politically, agree? It was more like the USA was before our bloody civil war where the Federal government finally exerted itself over the individual states.

I'm not trying to disprove your statement that the name HRE was not used in official documents before 1254. What I am saying is that the HRE existed in theory before 1254, BUT it used a different name on official records. Frederick used the term Holy Empire, iirc from that website. (BTW, nice website for facts :go: ) IIRC, Otto was the King of the Germans. Then he was crowned Emperor of the Roman German States... (which was the HRE, before the official name was sanctioned as Sacrum Romanum Imperium.. gotta love latin. it is such a beautiful language... America should speak latin and not this gibberish ;) )


I was actually arguing the official birth of the term HRE

yep. And I was talking about the official birth of what was to become known as the HRE. :go: so we have nothing to worry about but too much :cheers: around the discussion table.

:go: is such a great smilie.

in regards to Angry and other "Empire of Germans"
let's look at the term Germany as an expression to qualifiy "All the parts of the German Empire under one central leadership person/thing, but not including the other groups under the HRE umbrella of control." It might ease some headaches and gnashing of teeth. :cool:

[Beyazit I.]

1034 Roman Empire (not the Roman Empire from 31B.C-476A.D)

1157 Holy Empire

1254 Holy Roman Empire

about 1512 Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation

Discussion over these are facts from History writing.

[Angryminer]

I don't like playing games while thinking "That is wrong. Wrong. WRONG!!!"
At least I want to have that lifted off my shoulders and replaced with "That's the best representation that's possible." if I can't get any better solution.

Angryminer

[Sir Turylon]

I don't like playing games while thinking "That is wrong. Wrong. WRONG!!!"
At least I want to have that lifted off my shoulders and replaced with "That's the best representation that's possible." if I can't get any better solution.

Angryminer

have you ever played Civilization 3 and watched a small galley armed with bows and arrows take out a Frigate armed with 3-4 pounder cannons? :) it happened to me.. I stopped playing Civ3 for a month... lol.

[Angryminer]

You know, I fear that the same will happen to me.


I should stop posting for a while. I'm really angry now...


Angryminer
:D

[Bora]

You know, I fear that the same will happen to me.


I should stop posting for a while. I'm really angry now...


Angryminer
:D

maybe the best,... that litte name "germany" makes you the game a bit bad, it seems.
and angryminer: on one side you know that the game is no history lesson, its more rewriteing medieval history. but in this case you you are very different. so also to bring you to another opinion take it as i described some posts before. in THIS case natiosn who formed HRE have not choosen ame HRE as name they have choosen Germany,.... (so have in mind thats just a name)

[timurlenk]

have you ever played Civilization 3 and watched a small galley armed with bows and arrows take out a Frigate armed with 3-4 pounder cannons? :) it happened to me.. I stopped playing Civ3 for a month... lol.

they catched it during a calm :)

[Prins_v_Brabant]

I cannot believe my eyes when I'm reading some posts over the date's of the HRE! very strange