holy roman empire vs. germany

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Vytis
I don't think I'm in the 'Germany club' but I'll give 1 reason :

Because Byzantium, Fatimids, Castile etc. will be historically more justified names than HRE for the realms they're gonna represent in KoH. Therefore, the fun will suffer because of a greater historical [political-territorial] inaccuracy.

So you are implyng Holy Roman Empire is historicaly incorrect? Let me remind you that the HRE name existed from the 1034. Not to mention that before that it was known as 'Eastern Frankish Kingdom'. There was no Germany until 19th centry. And the lands itself were known only in 15th century as Germania by the King/Emperor himself. Also it is true that the Kings didn't consider themselves Emperor's if they haven't been crowned by the Pope. The thing is that one couldn't become an Emperor if he wasn't 'King of the Germans' elected by the five german tribes and their leaders, but the kingdom itself was definately not "Germany".

I have a question of my own for 'HRE club' :
Why is it german realms that must be called HRE? Why not Austria?

It's simple. Beacuse it would be historicly correct. If the historians themselves are calling it 'Holy Roman Empire' why should KoH be any different?

btw, I don't support neither 'Germany' nor 'HRE' :)

What do you suggest then? I am curious. ;)

[Cork2]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Anti-HRE's is better?

huh? there is no club like that either. I doubt there is a club here.

[Elewyn]

@Cork2. Right. So defenders of Germany, I just wanted to say it somehow diferent. I didn't expected anybody will take it literally. Instead of giving any arguments you point out irelevant and unimportant words. Just keep some imagination :p
Originally posted by Vytis
I have a question of my own for 'HRE club' :
Why is it german realms that must be called HRE? Why not Austria? Austria will be part of HRE in KoH, only in late entry period it will be vassal state of HRE with other ones like Bohemia, Brandenburg, Bavaria...

It was and it should be part of it. And HRE including Austria should not be called Germany.
Because Byzantium, Fatimids, Castile etc. will be historically more justified names than HRE for the realms they're gonna represent in KoH. Therefore, the fun will suffer because of a greater historical [political-territorial] inaccuracy.Sorry, I'm not as smart as you are, I see no diference. What will be that political-territorial inaccurancy HRE will suffer?(it will be something else only in late period, where Austria etc. will be vassal fractions)

I will be pleased if "Italy" in northern parts of Italy, which we can see in screenshots, will be removed, only states like Genoa and Venice should stay there. Because nothing like it existed. I won't be against fractions like "Lombard league"(high), Genoa(high, late), Venice(high, late).
But that absolutely made-up fraction of Italy (+Switzerland in high entry point which, I hope, will be removed too) is the only territorial inacurancy of HRE.

here I found for you titles of Frederick Barbarossa and Frederick II., his grandson:
Friedrich Barbarossa
Duke of Swabia (1147-1152).
King of the Romans (1152-1190).
King of Italy (1154-1186).
Emperor from 1155 (known as Frederick I).
Count of Burgundy from 1156 by marrying Beatrice of Burgundy.
King of Burgundy from 1178

Friedrich II.
Frederick by the grace of God, emperor of the Romans, the ever August...king of Jerusalem (after his seal)
King of the two Sicilies (1198-1250).
Duke of Swabia (1212-1216)
King of the Romans from 1213.
Emperor from 1220 (known as Frederick IV).
King of Jerusalem from 1229.

Barbarossa as king of italy was just formal title to empower his domination over Italy. King of Italy was formal title without any real kingdom of Italy to rule. It was formel title of Emperors which pointed out their supremacy over Italian municipal states. Emperor Charles IV. f.r used very similar title "king of Lombardy". Here are his main titles:
Marchgrave of Moravia (1333-1346)
Count of Luxemburg (1346 - 1353)
King of Bohemia (1346 - 1378)
King of the Romans (1346 - 1355)
King of Burgundy
King of Lombardy
Holy Roman Emperor (1355 - 1378)
Marchgrave of Brandenburg (1373-1378)

No word about Germany

[Gorgoroth]

omfg...:nono: :silly:

[Sir Turylon]

:cheers: @ Elewyn.

I do not think there is any alternative to Holy Roman Empire. If you are going to include a "German Territory" it must be called this... The only other thing you can possibly do is break it down back to the Carolingian Territories. This might also help break up the large "mass" of the HRE.

You could make Western Frankish Empire still be called France.. Lothaire would be middle, and Eastern Frankish Empire. (problem would be that these did not exist in 1000 AD though, but neither did Germany...))

hm, looking at screenshot again... I see what the devs did... most of the other regions are broken down further. why not break Germany down into Saxony, Bavaria, Austrasia. And convert Italy into Genoa and Lombardy, since Corsica and Sardina were part of Genoa.

If yer gonna split Hungary into those small provinces, why not do it to Germany as well?

ps. oh, if anyone is wondering... I'm getting this from an atlas of Europe. showing the territories of the different regions from Roman Empire all the way up till the 1800s.

[Elewyn]

as discussed somewhere else. HolyRomanEmpire broke to small states later-after 1250, but also before there were duchies as they were in France, but in most of 11th and 12th centuries emperors were strong enough to keep them under their strong rule. That changed in times of Barbarossa, who fought in Italy with less than necessary care about "Germany". The same for his son and especally grandson Frederick II. who cared more of Sicily and Italy than of "Germany" but still was powerful enough to keep them together. But before he started his reign in 1212, he must have first defeated Otto IV.(emperor 1209-1215) and he was dependant on hiis supporters-powerful dukes, what was only next chapter of war which begun in 1196nbetween Staufen and Welfen. Bohemian duke came out of this fight with title of king and independancy, other dukes with many privilegues, what came into life after Frederick's death in 1250. In this time HRE was still universal monarchy, but dukes were strong enough to ba able to govern german parts of empire by themselves leaving italy to municipal states and supremacy of the pope.

So to return back to KoH, in late period area of HRE/Germany will be divided among states like Bohemia, Austria, Bavaria, Brandenburg, maybe Saxony, Mecklenburg and others, but they can't be same independant kingdoms like f.e. France, so there still is some power above them, and devs want to call it Germany and make those states it's vassal (Austria-vassal of Germany, Bavaria-vassal of Germany, Saxony-vassal of Germany etc. nice thing, isn't it?)

Austrasia is one of frankish realms from 6th century I doubt it is usable in KoH.

I also wonder why early entry point is abnnounced to be 1000 A.D. when most of states have borders from 9th century :scratch: So why not to put early period officialy where it actually is, to year 900?

btw. in KoH Hungary is not split into pieces. It was for some few years, not more than 10yrs around 1300 when local lords profited from the end of royal dynasty which had no male heirs.

[Sir Turylon]

good point. @ first part.

Interesting... they have formed Bosnia and.. Croatia where Hungary was (according to this atlas).

Notice somethign strange. They have named smaller "duchies" or regions of the HRE, but grouped a whole mass of em under the names Germany and Italy. If they split Germany into Bavaria and Saxony, it might solve the problem of Germany coming in around 600 years too early. Italy could easily be broken into Genoa and Lombardy.

I do see what you are talking about with clumping the vassel states under one name. But, if that is the case, why have they broken england into so many?

In any case... not having HRE isn't going to decrease the game's over-all appeal. Perhaps in an expansion they will allow us to go back to re-visit the earlier times, IE pre-1000 AD.

PS. The devs might want to skip over the dark ages, trying to focus on post-Frankish Europe.

[Vytis]

1000 AD in history (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_byzantine_empires.jpg)
1000 AD in KoH (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//gfx/screenshots/scr_koh_0119.jpg)
Note independent Italy (!?), Lotharingia, etc. in KoH.

High medieval period in history (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/roman_empire_1138_1254.jpg)
High medieval period in KoH (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//gfx/screenshots/scr_koh_0118.jpg)
Note independent Bohemia, Italy (!?), Sicily, Teutonic Order, Pomerania, etc. in KoH.

1360 AD (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_1360.jpg)
And in KoH : probably independent Austria, Bohemia, Italian states, dutch states, etc. etc.


The point is : HRE is historically accurate term. However, in KoH it would represent only a portion of historic HRE. Therefore it would be inaccurate name to use.


Maybe it would be OK to use 'HRE' if vassalship system would be handled correctly.

What do you suggest then?
Since I don't think that 'HRE' or 'Germany' are accurate choices in KoH ,a couple of pages earlier in this thread I suggested to use a name like 'German States'. Or 'German Principalities'. Or something like that. There wasn't much support so I don't want to bring this up again.

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Sir Turylon
1. Interesting... they have formed Bosnia and.. Croatia where Hungary was (according to this atlas).

2. Notice somethign strange. They have named smaller "duchies" or regions of the HRE, but grouped a whole mass of em under the names Germany and Italy. If they split Germany into Bavaria and Saxony, it might solve the problem of Germany coming in around 600 years too early. Italy could easily be broken into Genoa and Lombardy.

3.why have they broken england into so many?

4.In any case... not having HRE isn't going to decrease the game's over-all appeal. Perhaps in an expansion they will allow us to go back to re-visit the earlier times, IE pre-1000 AD.
1. Croatia was in personal union with Hungary since 1102(not sure about exact date), but always as separate kingdom. In 1000 ist should be independent and powerful state.

2. That would be great solution, but it has some very significant problems:
a) Great power which was represented by emperors will split into small duchies...
b) ...which factically didn't exist as independent states at all and will be made up same like name Germany. Counts and dukes before 1200 were almost the same like counts and dukes in every other feudal state, not independant souvereigns!

3.as I said the map of 1000(in KoH) is like map of Europe before 900 when England was divided up to 7 kingdoms(only England, Wales was independent, Scotland was everything but state-it should be each realm one kingdom

4.as I said they shold "rename" early map year from 1000 to 900 because it fits more to 900.

Originally posted by Vytis
1000 AD in history (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_byzantine_empires.jpg)
1000 AD in KoH (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//gfx/screenshots/scr_koh_0119.jpg)
Note independent Italy (!?), Lotharingia, etc. in KoH.as I said above. The should either rename "early year" from 1000 to 900 or before it. I would like to give you links of divided frankish empire. Western empire 887 (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/western_empire_887.jpg) is the best, but with some notes. In 843 empire was divided to East, West parts and Lotharingia. Lotharingia was between both, including those duchies(visible in the map):Both Lotharingias(Friesland, Upper, Lower Lorraine), whole kingdom of Burgundy and whole kingdom of Italy

High medieval period in history (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/roman_empire_1138_1254.jpg)
High medieval period in KoH (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//gfx/screenshots/scr_koh_0118.jpg)
Note independent Bohemia, Italy (!?), Sicily, Teutonic Order, Pomerania, etc. in KoH.
little problems over here. Although Bohemian dukes/kings, as I described many times here, were oficially vassals of Emperors, were not like other regular princes of HRE. Emperors never had ANY rights in Bohemia, their only privilegue was to invest dukes/kings of Bohemia and bishops of Prague and grant them their land as a fief, this was because numerous members of Przemyslid house thought they would have bigger respect at home when saying: "Emperor stands behind me!" Actually empperors granted Bohemia as fief to everybody from Przemyslid dynasty who asked them for it without any intension to change rulers, because every that Premyslid gave them huge amount of money. So it happened few times that there were 2-3 dukes invested by Emperor, but only the strongest one ruled.

Empire laws payed in whole empire,but not in Bohemia. When straight heir line ended, Bohemian nobles had right to chose new duke/king, Emperor only invested him in the name of universal christian emperor(in every HRE duchy-fief where imperial laws were practised when local dynasty ended it was upon Emperor to chose next owner!).
I study history, especially medieval Bohemian. This is true, proved by newest Czech and also German researches. I'm not telling you lies of nationalistic historians of 19th century and up to 1970's who in Czech side thought Bohemia was absolutely independent, and on German side that Bohemia was in the same relations to Empire like f.e. Bavaria or Austria. Bohemia WAS officially part of HRE with electory vote and in vassality relation to Empire, but in the same time it had absolutely independent policy and laws. May sound strange, but it was middle ages :)

Also Kingdom of Sicily never was (neither officialy) part of HRE! Only Frederick II. as king of Sicily and Holy Roman Emperor holded them both.

Teutonic order started his Baltic campaign in 1228, whet's not so far from 1200-is in tolerance of game. Worse is case of Switzerland and Italy, Switzerland started independent existence in 1291, Italy I described in my previous post.

The point is : HRE is historically accurate term. However, in KoH it would represent only a portion of historic HRE. Therefore it would be inaccurate name to use.

Maybe it would be OK to use 'HRE' if vassalship system would be handled correctly.

Since I don't think that 'HRE' or 'Germany' are accurate choices in KoH a couple of pages earlier in this thread I suggested to use a name like 'German States'. Or 'German Principalities'. Or something like that. There wasn't much support so I don't want to bring this up again. Your suggestion is accurate in historical meaning, as I already told you, but inacurate in case of HRE's vassals being vassals of German principalities/states. Then Germany is IMO better because it's representing "lasting big power" of the HRE, however absolutely made-up. Bohemia and Italy cannot be vassals of Germany, but it's still better solution than being vassals of German states, so Italy and Bohemia being vassals of f.e. also Thuringen, Nassau, Pfalz, Bavaria, Meissen. I prefere Gerany from German states.

Sorry for long post.
if I can ask you for something, devs, follow please this map for 1200 (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt56e6020831d813ff.jpg)

[Finellach]

Well Sir Turylon your atlas is not correct. As Elewyn said Croatia and Hungary were in personal union. Independant kingdoms, but with one king...from 1102 and Pacta Conventa(Terms agreed upon).

Bosnia later became also quite powerful. So much that it was lifted up to the Kingdom and the Kotromanic dynsty who ruled as kings were vassals or Hungarian-Croatian King.

I must say the first map is quite interesting Vytis. Notice that the area in southern Poland is called "Chrobatia" which would mean - Croatia. :D ;)

Edit: I would be happy if there is Germany, but as a vassal to HRE or something like that. I know it would not be correct, but still it would be more logical.

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by Finellach
Well Sir Turylon your atlas is not correct. As Elewyn said Croatia and Hungary were in personal union. Independant kingdoms, but with one king...from 1102 and Pacta Conventa(Terms agreed upon).

Bosnia later became also quite powerful. So much that it was lifted up to the Kingdom and the Kotromanic dynsty who ruled as kings were vassals or Hungarian-Croatian King.

I must say the first map is quite interesting Vytis. Notice that the area in southern Poland is called "Chrobatia" which would mean - Croatia. :D ;)

Edit: I would be happy if there is Germany, but as a vassal to HRE or something like that. I know it would not be correct, but still it would be more logical.

oh no! now I am going to have to go out and get a new one. :)

map I was looking at was actually based on 1190. found:
map (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_mediterranean_1190.jpg)

hmm, that map in the post by Vytis made me drool. now, I must go and find it for my collection.

ps. I really like Elewyn's map for 1000 AD, although the guy in HRE might have an unfair advantage at beginning. :)
map here (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt0d2f50f92861cd19.jpg)

[Frujin]

@Elewyn: They are not independant. In the list you show as example is just not indicated (hm?!) but they are really vassal states.

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Frujin
@Elewyn: They are not independant. In the list you show as example is just not indicated (hm?!) but they are really vassal states. Oh, I have little mess in my lists here in forum :silly:
what do you mean, if you can specify it, please?
who is not independent?

and sorry. It's from a book. scool scripts for the Charles University, History of Middle ages.

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Sir Turylon
oh no! now I am going to have to go out and get a new one. :)

map I was looking at was actually based on 1190. found:
map (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_mediterranean_1190.jpg)
[/URL]

Heh...this map is even worse...there is no Bohemia, Burgundy. Croatia and Bosnia are not marked as kingdoms....
Notice also that this maps introduces another name for HRE...one I didn't heard until now. :p

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by Finellach
Heh...this map is even worse...there is no Bohemia, Burgundy. Croatia and Bosnia are not marked as kingdoms....
Notice also that this maps introduces another name for HRE...one I didn't heard until now. :p

eh.. worse... not really.

that one, like I said, was from 1190. According to that map, Croatia and Bosnia were vassels of Hungary. That map also shows the major kingdoms, not self-ruled regions.

new name? oh, you mean the Holy Kingdom of Germany Roman Empire? That really isn't it. It is Holy Roman Empire and Kingdom of Germany is the "German kingdom part." Notice how many of the regions have "Kingdom of."

[Finellach]

Croatia was not a vassal of Hungary. Hungary and Croatia were a dual kingdom. Bosnia was a vassal.

The map is incorrect in many things...as I already pointed out.

[Gorgoroth]

So....ummmm what will be the naming in the game? HRE or Kingdom of Germany maybe? We are just arguing, and we still dont know the developer's decision. :D

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Gorgoroth
So....ummmm what will be the naming in the game? HRE or Kingdom of Germany maybe? We are just arguing, and we still dont know the developer's decision. :D

Yes I think that would be good. More and more threads are like endless pits...we can argue and disucss, but it all depends on devs and they are silent...

[Elewyn]

for all the threads which nead answer: devs are quite busy, it's better that they spend time on game than on the forum.

To this thread. I think there are two reasons why they are not answering. (1) They really don't know how to decide, so we can go on wit speculating and trying to change current stay or stop it and wait until friday and then visit official site where we hopefully will see.
Or (2) they are already decided and just don't want to make us angry. There are not many answers, so better less but neutral or positive than less and negative.

[Ledhead]

IMO there are three things wrong in using the term "Holy Roman Empire".
1. It wasn't holy.
2. It wasn't Roman.
3. It wasn't an empire.

This is of course a deeper historical discussion that I don't think was intended in this poll. So for gamesake reasons I guess it would be OK to call it...that...HRE.

It would be cool though if adversaries and enemies in their diplomatical actions towards the HRE could address it as kingdom of the Germans. Like the emperor in Constantinople surely would do...:p