holy roman empire vs. germany

[Frujin]

You are right Angryminer. Besides the reason for the name. Is is not because someone may not know HRE (actually even more wouldn't know Bulgaria either). The reason is that if we name Germany to HRE then it will look wierd to have all other kingdoms OUTSIDE (even as vassals). And well, HRE was exacly that: number of Germanic states tightly bound together and other states orbiting arround as a vassals, because of political reasons, dynastical reasons, etc.

But yes - you are right. That's our representation. It is not a technical problem to rename Germany to HRE. But besides the other reasons, did you noticed that everyone is writing HRE instead of Holly Roman Empire? :)

[Angryminer]

I do use other abbrevations like afk, IMHO, afaik and tbal, too. That doesn't count as an argument ;) .
Anyway, I think that this representation is close enough to use the name "Holy Roman Empire" so either change it or tell me how to change it once the game is released ;) .
[ ...I hope you don't crypt your game-date so we can edit it a bit... ]

Angryminer

[Elewyn]

Thanks for proper explanation of your statements (or in case of Angryminer, I’d like to call it OUR). I‘m sorry if this is not so god, I had it very well written, but then my comp had broken :bash:

To all guys who might have problem: HRE is Holy Roman Empire (I had this problem too before, now I’m trying not to use abreviation if posible)

I don’t insist on having Holy Roman Empire now so hardly, because Frujin’s arguments are really strong, however I still think that HRE is better than Germany.

To have feeling of keeping great power in central Europe, I would like extending it a little (on map as it is now including Nassau and Pomerania in HRE). My argument for keeping “Holy Roman Empire + vasalls“ alive against “Germany + vasall states“ is it’s better for “the feeling of Power“. When playing for HREmpire and having king as vasalls it still looks you are their souvereign, not “ordinary“ king of Germany. Also when being king of Bohemia, it’s better to be vasal of HRE than Germany (maybe this is all little silly J)

And also I would really appreciate optoin of double choose when being ruler of Bohemia, Austria, Brandenburg, Bavaria, Saxony and Holland(maybe better than Friesland), (Pomerania, Nassau, Alsace, Wurttemberg, Pfalz, Lorraine, Franconia are HRE).

Example: I wanna play for Bohemia, so there two options are for me:
1) be vasall of Holy Roman Empire, keep Bohemian lands and my kingdom is called Bohemia
2) be also Holy Roman Emperor, so I (player) will have lands of Bohemia + realms of Holy Roman Empire (Lorraine, Nassau, Pfalz, Alsace…) and my state is called Holy Roman Empire, I am stroner of my lands, than playing only fo HRE and other “members of HRE“(Austria, Bavaria, Brandenburg, Saxony, Holland) will be my vasalls

btw, I’m gonna scan map with little changes, where Holy Roman Empire is strictly told from it’s vasalls-not states in a state.

And finally my wish for soon solition of this problem in common agreement :cheers:

EDIT: promissed map of HRE etc. (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/ttt16de57345adbc36c.jpg)

[Bora]

i know a very little, little bit of programming and also know what a developer must usually think of when he is programming a game.

here the problem is between game balanceing and historical correctness. as i wrote HRE is really really special and if you would watch EVERY kingdom in KoH with the same correctnes, you would find historical and political errors everywhere.
so here the MAINQUESTION: is it not enough that KoH will try the best balance betwwen history and gamefun?

i think it does! to quote one of franks best comments:
KoH is NOT CNN, its a game!

so please forget about that historical thing in this point and put a little bit trust in the KoH developing team, that they will fidn the best solution possible,.. everyone agree with me? :)

[Frujin]

I see you all got it now :) It's is exacly as (almost exacly) as Elewyn painted it. Now, the only last point - HRE was all of it. Not only a part of it, as Elewyn suggested. Actually it is more confusing in Elewyn's map for historical-not-freaks than with our variant, where wehave Germany and vassals. I will definitely agree, that being vassal of Germany instead of HRE is a bid .. hmm .. different.

Please, think again. Some newbie will buy the game, take a look and see - damn, HRE is only here?! All of it is only this?! Sounds much more incorrect if you ask me.

[Angryminer]

All of it [HRE] is only this?!That doesn't count either @ Frujin.
In my opinion a HRE consisting of vasallities etc (see Elewyn's map) suits history much more than something like "Germany", and I really think that there will be a few hundrets of posts about that...

However, it's your game. ;)

Angryminer

[Frujin]

Originally posted by Angryminer
That doesn't count either @ Frujin.
In my opinion a HRE consisting of vasallities etc (see Elewyn's map) suits history much more than something like "Germany", and I really think that there will be a few hundrets of posts about that...

However, it's your game. ;)

Angryminer

It's really our game, but it's you supposed to enjoy it :) That's why I'm spending a LOT of time in this forum to got each piece of feedback possible. That helps the game to get better. :)

[Bora]

Originally posted by Angryminer
That doesn't count either @ Frujin.
In my opinion a HRE consisting of vasallities etc (see Elewyn's map) suits history much more than something like "Germany", and I really think that there will be a few hundrets of posts about that...

However, it's your game. ;)

Angryminer

accordintg this poll you can be right. (over 3x more pro HRE then pro germany voters)

only sad that no one agrees to my last post,... dot the devs and not the users :(

thought i can bring some peace to this discussion...

[Elewyn]

Angryminer, you can be my speaker here :) and I your painter :D

Yes. It's your game, Frujin.

I hope every kingdom will have some very short description, so also HRE. And there can be something like:
"Holy Roman Empire was community of big number of more-or-less duchies, counties and kingdom. It had very complicated system of vassality so we made most important states as separate states and make them vassals of the mass of the rest of Holy Roman Empire, which is here called: ..."

There is no misunderstanding now, we all know what is other side's point, so it's only up on you, Frujin. If you call it Germany, I'll buy the game and have fun. If not, I'll buy it and have fun and will be satisfied more :)

I simply lovbe this game too much, that's why I want "all" ;)

Originally posted by Bora
i think it does! to quote one of franks best comments:
KoH is NOT CNN, its a game!

so please forget about that historical thing in this point and put a little bit trust in the KoH developing team, that they will fidn the best solution possible,.. everyone agree with me? :) I think last posts of me and Angryminer are expressing agreement with it.

I agree with Frank. But also I must use another "classic's" citation. Angryminer: "Fun over accuracy, okay. But when inaccuracy destroys the fun, no." ;)

[timurlenk]

mea culpa, mea maxima culpa :angel:

@ elewyn, sorry for my complicated english:
1. whatever realms remain to build the hre, lets call it hre.

the realms that remain are - according to your map: lorraine, pfalz, franconia, wurtemburg, nassau etc.

my wish: let it call hre please!

2. which realms are intended to be idenpendent to date?
that was a question to frujin, which was answered by your maps: holland, bohemia, saxony, austria, bavaria, brandenburg.

(guess its not fixed today. whats about pomerania, helvetia, burgundy, italian relams... maybe it depends on the different entry dates)

hope it more clear now :)


@ frujin & frank fay
thanks for being interested in this "small" problem. dont know this from other devs & publishers / producers. (sometimes they are even not interested in results of beta-testing :angry: )

1.
your system: main realms to build + vasalls is as perfect as possible. and cause of it represents the hre perfect, why not call it hre?

2. if you call it germany, of course i will buy it. would be ridicolous any other way :bday:

3. as i noticed in the poll, hre is in the lead. i guess, koh is a game for a specific kind of gamers. i also guess, most of these gamers are also interested in the historic background of koh. so they will have no problems to understand the name hre with its unique system of main-realsm + vasalls.

4. maybe these small "problemes" are the different between a good game and a perfect game :cheers:


@ angryminer
what shall i say? you are the speaker, elewyn is your painter. please let me be your court jester :bday: :bday:


@ bora
we all here want peace. dont forget, i come from austria, which invented "make love not war!" ("tu felix austria nube, alii belli gerant.") :D
but we all want it perfect...

[Vytis]

1. Maybe that country should be called smthng like German States instead of simply Germany. That'd be a little more accurate historywise.
2. Is it possible to assign the title of HREmperor to the ruler who owns most realms in the historic boundaries of HRE (vassal realms counting as his own) ?

[Bora]

everyone of us (or the most) know how it worked in mtw, right?
EVERY nations consisted of privonces/realms.
same with HRE. when a kingdom conquered a new province, the province got part of that kingdom.
as i know in KoH it is similar. for example, you have bavaria, (and there always will be bavaria in the game.,right?)
when you start to play germany/HRE in KoH´, bavaria is part of it, right? let say italy is in war with germany/hre and conquers bavaria, now bavaria belongs to italy, right?

so the only problem is, what do you call this kingdom (actually in this case its a "kaiserreich") formed of provinces/realms, right?!

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Bora
everyone of us (or the most) know how it worked in mtw, right?
EVERY nations consisted of privonces/realms.
same with HRE. when a kingdom conquered a new province, the province got part of that kingdom.
as i know in KoH it is similar. for example, you have bavaria, (and there always will be bavaria in the game.,right?)
when you start to play germany/HRE in KoH´, bavaria is part of it, right? let say italy is in war with germany/hre and conquers bavaria, now bavaria belongs to italy, right?

:dwink: there was no italy in the middelages, so it could not conquer bavaria... :nono:
(please, no discussions on this item :cheers: )




so the only problem is, what do you call this kingdom (actually in this case its a "kaiserreich") formed of provinces/realms, right?!

lets say its one of the problems... germany vs. holy roman empire... :angel:

[Backside]

Originally posted by Elewyn
In times of Charles the Great there was no Germany. Let's have a look here: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0800.htm
Charles was king of Franks and "Roman emperor". After division east Frankisch empire became "regnum teutonicum" and in 962 its king Otto became "Roman Emperor" again.

I agree with you, but remember that king Otto became the "Roman Emperor of german nationality"! He wanted to reconstruct the Roman Empire, but first for Germans and than rest of catholic countries.
In the time of Charles the Great in fact there was no Germany or any other country but later people living there were called Germans and they knew their nationality - so it was "Roman Empire" cointaining Gemarns :].
And at last - if I had heard about my west neighbours (so Germans) in middle age their country were called German Empire and only when Barborossa rules HRE, so the best possibility for me is German Empire - not only Germany and not HRE at all :].

[Bora]

Originally posted by timurlenk
:dwink: there was no italy in the middelages, so it could not conquer bavaria... :nono:
(please, no discussions on this item :cheers: )






lets say its one of the problems... germany vs. holy roman empire... :angel:

really funny :rolleyes:
then take wahtever country you think it exsisted to that time.
please think a bit behind!
ltes come back to a seroius discussion

but to quite this discussion: bss should replace germany for hre
that how it was also in mtw and no one had a problem with that name.

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by timurlenk
2. which realms are intended to be idenpendent to date?
that was a question to frujin, which was answered by your maps: holland, bohemia, saxony, austria, bavaria, brandenburg.

(guess its not fixed today. whats about pomerania, helvetia, burgundy, italian relams... maybe it depends on the different entry dates)

hope it more clear now :)

4. maybe these small "problemes" are the different between a good game and a perfect game :cheers:
4.that’s the point :go:
2. It’s not as it is on my maps, regarding Frujin’s words: It's is exacly as ([/B]almost[/B] exacly) as Elewyn painted it btw my question to this. What is not right? (I’ll change it-maybeJ) :D
Originally posted by Vytis
1. Maybe that country should be called smthng like German States instead of simply Germany. That'd be a little more accurate historywise.very good point IMO :go: Originally posted by Backside
In the time of Charles the Great in fact there was no Germany or any other country but later people living there were called Germans and they knew their nationality - so it was "Roman Empire" cointaining Gemarns :].
And at last - if I had heard about my west neighbours (so Germans) in middle age their country were called German Empire and only when Barborossa rules HRE, so the best possibility for me is German Empire - not only Germany and not HRE at all :].I think Charles the Great has no new usefull info for our discussion here…

We in Czech rep. call it simply Rise, what means Empire because who the hack should remember all those names ;) Roman Empire, Empire of Eastern Franks, Roman Empire again, Holy Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire of German nation, Commonwealth of Rhine (1806-1814?), Commonwealth of Germany. states after 1871 we call simply Germany (German Empire, Weimar republic, 3ed Reich, Bundesrepublik Detschland). But I know that Empire is not enough for needs of KoH..

To @Bora vs. @timurlenk. Calm down guys.. Yes Italy was not there, but it was just an example. but @Bora, see “:dwink:“ in timurlenk‘s post also. It was meant as a joke.

Btw, I like those two names for the “rest of whole Holy Roman Empire“:
1) Holy Roman Empire as “my speaker“ (Angryminer) explained. “Chains of vasallity“ will give it almost full sense
2) (Small) German states (of Holy Roman Empire) because it fits better for that region… oh now I realized I wanna play for Bohemia… being vassal of “Small german states“.. :nono: sorry. Pulling back this one.

So HRE is my choice afterall. With the thing I’ll play it also with Germany, but poll speaks. I know it’s not good representation of all members, but… I’m gonna call them all

[Bora]

@ elewyn: i know it was just a joke from timurlenk, but in my eyes a stupid one. sorry that i cant share every guys humor, but every person is different.

perfect game? i never bought the perfect game.
developers must also going a neutral way sometimes, that
they can reach as much customers as possible.
its a bit lie a cook. he cant cook the meals as he likes it, he must do it a way that its ok for (almost) everyone.
lets say he likes som meals really spicey and is cooking a meal that way. than a cusmtomer comes and doenst like too much spice at all. guess what he will say to the waiter if he had tried it? ;)
yes, he will say bring it back i want a new one with LESS spice.

but i bet there will be also some guys who will pay not much attention about difference about HRE and germany. actually a lot of them will not even know about HRE.
its always so, that from all people who are buying a game only a really litte amount are registered to its (official) forum. imagine if just about 30 (activ) people would buy this game? bss and sunflowers could imediatly quit the production of KoH

so i still think that you make too much noice arround this discussion ;)

but if you could proof that some hundret or thousand people would also have a problem that HRE would be called germany in KoH, then maybe they change it

[Elewyn]

sorry for a little attempt

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Bora
but if you could proof that some hundret or thousand people would also have a problem that HRE would be called germany in KoH, then maybe they change it

but thats not the question! sorry, we do not understand each other :(
we are just searching for the best name for a complicated medieaval empire. its that simple.

& i dont want to make war cause of this simple question.

peace :cheers:

[Bora]

Originally posted by timurlenk
no need to get impolite.



but thats not the question! sorry, we do not understand each other :(
we are just searching for the best name for a complicated medieaval empire. its that simple.

& i dont want to make war cause of this simple question.

peace :cheers:

sorry if i hurt you with my comment.

but bss and sunflowers seem to have decided that germany would do the best. tahst what i wanted to say with my last comment.