holy roman empire vs. germany

[Finellach]

I'd translate that into kingdom of the Germans. Teuton is often used as a synonym of German...

You would....I wouldn't.

[Havard]

dont forget, they also used regnum francorum.
I know that. How would that relate to Germany?

[Havard]

You would....I wouldn't.
Let's agree to disagree then :)

I would say that a Rex Teutonicum, crowned in Aachen; elected by and asserting sovereignity over the German tribal Duchies of Franconia, Saxony, Swabia, Bavaria and Thüringia can be translated as King of the Germans.

[timurlenk]

I know that. How would that relate to Germany?


the kings (east franconian) called their realm regnum francorum, or regnum francorum et saxonum.
maybe later it was called regnum teutonicum for some time, but thats not for sure.

[Havard]

the kings (east franconian) called their realm regnum francorum, or regnum francorum et saxonum.
maybe later it was called regnum teutonicum for some time, but thats not for sure.
As a splinter kingdom of the original Frankish kingdom I find that natural. It's the same reasoning behind that as the Byzantine empire calling themself "Roman Empire"

[Finellach]

I would say that a Rex Teutonicum, crowned in Aachen; elected by and asserting sovereignity over the German tribal Duchies of Franconia, Saxony, Swabia, Bavaria and Thüringia can be translated as King of the Germans.

Yes, but as I said many times the fact there was King of Germans doesn't mean there was "kingdom of Germans" or anything like that. Germany didn't existed as homgenous nation at that time...I would say before 16th century. It was divided into various duchies and small states and later it was divided into few kingdoms like: Saxony, Bavaria, Prussia, Austria, etc...

[Ledhead]

Yes, but as I said many times the fact there was King of Germans doesn't mean there was "kingdom of Germans" or anything like that. Germany didn't existed as homgenous nation at that time...I would say before 16th century. It was divided into various duchies and small states and later it was divided into few kingdoms like: Saxony, Bavaria, Prussia, Austria, etc...

In that case, what was the German king ruling over? Or wasn't there a German king...?
In every Medieval history book I've read the ruler over the Germans is called "King of Germany", sometimes the German kings also were crowned emperors by the pope.
AFAIK the Kingdom of Germany was historical reality, it was the first step for a German prince to become (HR)Emperor. IIRC he also had to obtain the title King of Italy (or was it King of Rome) and to travel to Rome to be crowned by the pope.
All the medieval (HR)emperors first had to be kings of Germany to become emperors. For Otto the Great it took some 25-30 years to get so far.

[Finellach]

Germany or Germania didn't designate a nation or a state but a region. As someone once said Grace Kelly was American Princess, not Princes of America. ;)

btw. I am tired of this thread...

[timurlenk]

Germany or Germania didn't designate a nation or a state but a region. As someone once said Grace Kelly was American Princess, not Princes of America. ;)

btw. I am tired of this thread...yeah, groundhog day :eek:

[skeggox]

think that is right,

but it is too important to know,

that only germans fürsten had chosen the king from "holy roman empire of germans nation" and only those electee king could become kaiser (emperor), so was empire only rule from german kings, those was chosen from german fürsten.

so it only" hre" too not right, perhaps as act of shortening for the player,

but please, at begin from the game, when you select hre show the full name,

give sure player, that think, they play than roman empire, that had survive huns and goths invasion








Well I didn't wanted to comment until now, but I must say I voted for HRE. I mean it would be unfair to call it just "Germany" since this was a huge empire that included the titles of Burgudny, Italy and Germany....not to mention the huge number of other duchies and counties like Austria, Bohemia, Lower and Upper Lorraine, Luxembourg. HRE was multicultural state and to name it "Germany" would be not only historicly incorrect, but would also be unfair to other nations that lived in that huge empire.

[timurlenk]

think that is right,

but it is too important to know,

that only germans fürsten had chosen the king from "holy roman empire of germans nation" and only those electee king could become kaiser (emperor), so was empire only rule from german kings, that was chosen from german fürsten.

so it only" hre" too not right, perhaps as act of shortening for the player,

but please, at begin from the game, when you select hre show the full name,

give sure player, that think, they play than roman empire, that had survive huns and goths invasion

the name in the game wil be germany / deutschland, sorry. its fixed.

[skeggox]

had you never read from "deutscher ritterorden"( teutonic orders)

in the teutonic order, could only service germans knight, other as other knight orders,

in the Maltese, johanniter or temler had too fight knive from many differ nation

the teutonic orders leader was too called "deutschmeister"


and they had too own state create, so when you will play as german, than play as teutonic orders knight, that was germans

those germans knight state was too not weak, ask letten, esten, litauer, prussen and polen






Who are the germans? There were no germans in that era!

Angryminer

[skeggox]

came from north germany, near denmark border

my father family speak only lower saxony (niedersächsisch, niederfränkisch, pattdütsch),


dutch is too niederfränkisch language like niedersächsisch, plattdütsch

can better dutch understand as Bavarian or alemanisch

although Bavarian and alemanisch are german dialects

north germany language (niedersächsisch, pattdütsch, niederfränkisch) are very related with dutch language

but to bad, she will be die, although they is one of oldest german language, that had not many change until 1000 year, with own writing,















Actually Dutch is roughly a low-german dialect. So they're kinda German, at least in the Middle Ages.
Btw i think you confuse todays Germany and Germans with what was actually parts of the Kingdom of the Germans in the Middle Ages. All dukes and prinses etc had a vote whos to be elected King o the Germans. The elected king could then be crowned HRE by the pope.
IIRC I've already posted about this in this thread before...:rolleyes:

[skeggox]

country like french had too some region like normany, britons and Basque

think not that was french, at least, they had not the feeling that they was french

the nationaly feeling like we means came first 19century, and not ony by the germans




The Holy Roman Empire wasn't a nation like France was. It was an organisation above all those smaller nations.
The people were called bavarians, swabians, pommeranians, etc. etc.
Or they were called Germans. But then you didn't refer to the region or country "Germany" but to the people which were called "Germans", much like you call Caucasians "Caucasians".

Angryminer

[Elvain]

for those who still would like to have Holy Roman Empire in the game, there IS a way to have it instead of Germany.

It is, however, unofficial, not supported by BSS nor SF, it is my modification of some names in the game...

You only need to:
download certain program
PM me or e-mail me for my modification
modify your game

But I must say that there is a risk that the game may run worse than original versoin and official patches made by BSS, since neither the program, nor the modification are made by the developers of the game

[Steven William]

Well, there wasn't a "Germany" until the 18th or 19th century or whatever... So I'd say Holy Roman Empire... That is, if one "German" ruler controls all of the right provences.

[Elvain]

fo all those who would still like to see Holy Roman empire in Knights of Honor, there is possibility to do so.

Let's have look at here (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?t=3889)

[HappyAdolf]

HRE sounds just better :tongue:
But it isn't in, so whatev...

[Elvain]

it IS! I've made it :bday:

just look at the attachment :go: