holy roman empire vs. germany

[HappyAdolf]

Holy Roman Empire!!!! I say that as a German!!!! Either HRE or HRE of German nation, for those who don't know the name. But, hell, don't you buy a game just because you don't know a countries name? It's a medieval game with medieval countries, so call them by their Medieval names!!!

[Ledhead]

Originally posted by HappyAdolf
Holy Roman Empire!!!! I say that as a German!!!! Either HRE or HRE of German nation, for those who don't know the name. But, hell, don't you buy a game just because you don't know a countries name? It's a medieval game with medieval countries, so call them by their Medieval names!!!

From www.wikipedia.org if you search on HRE:

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"Contemporary terminology for the Empire varied greatly over the centuries. The term Roman Empire was used in 1034 to denote the lands under Conrad II, and Holy Empire in 1157. The use of the term Roman Emperor to refer to Northern European rulers started earlier with Otto II (Emperor 973–983). Emperors from Charlemagne (died 814) to Otto I the Great (Emperor 962–973) had simply used the phrase Imperator Augustus ("August Emperor"). The precise term Holy Roman Empire dates from 1254; the full expression Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (German Heiliges Römisches Reich deutscher Nation) appears in 1512, after several variations in the late 15th century"
---

:cheers:

[Frank Fay]

But, hell, don't you buy a game just because you don't know a countries name?
That's not the point mate....

[Elewyn]

not the point why you used Germany?
Why I ask, it's almost clear. I hope Frujin will have soon some time to explain us why you finally decided for it :(
Because I really don't understand. You made-up unexxisting kingdom of Italy and it is the reason why rest of HRE which lies mainly in Germany is called Germany. The problem is that Kingdom of Italy actually existed only until times of Otto I. and then it was nothing more than formal title (then also Jerusalem should be part of Germany, because emperor Frederick II. was by his title king of Jerusalem :(

I hope this all is wrong, but no hope is left in here :(

those who don't know the history wouldn't mind it. I personally think I will get angry everytime when "Germany" emerges on my screen. Maybe the game will be so cool that I won't, but...

[HappyAdolf]

@ FrankFay:
Yes, okay, but someone said some people wouldn't buy a middle ages game where they think the developers included romans...

But I say: HRE is historically correct and sounds cooler!!!:D

Elewyn is right!

But I'll buy the game no matter what the countries names are.
But I think if you want to make a historically correct game, make everything historically correct.

[Angryminer]

I always hate it when fans have to do the game designer's work ;) .
The paradox-fans had to do so too, and many other fans.

Angryminer

[ I know that my statement is very aggressive. I just force the devs to reveal their motives. ]

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
That's not the point mate....

sorry to sound so rude... but...

Why would somebody want to buy a game that touts being based on a time period, and then they find out that the devs forget one of the biggest "nations" of the time period? (hides from the wrath of Frank and Frujin)

It would be like buying a game based on Civil War here in America and not including the North!!!! just have South and Kentucky league. (doesn't mean I won't still be buying it...)

[Ledhead]

Sorry but as I see it the HRE was also a title. Maybe more frequently used then KOI (King of Italy) and because at some times real power was executed there, but after Otto IV (IIRC) the HRE was very decentralised and defragmentated into bishoprics and counties. And later the power shifted to the Austrian emperor who certainly used the title but couldn't quite unite the Germans, and then came the Reformation and all hopes of HRE was gone...
So what's the big fuss about HRE?!
The title should of coures come with some priviliges and prestige, but who ever get's elected in the game should also keep his previous title.
And the title/name HRE wasn't established until 1254, that's half way through the Middle Ages!
So what's the big fuss about HRE...?
I would prefer "King of the Germans".
I've said that so many times now (and it's already been decided, so it's no use anyway...) that I should add that to my signature, like the Roman senator Cato, "BTW, I think it should be King of the Germans!".

[Angryminer]

Who are the germans? There were no germans in that era!

Angryminer

[Elewyn]

title of HREmperor had real power. It was not as strong as in other christian kingdoms of that time, but it still had real existence. Title of the King of Italy was only official title for Emperors to demponstrate their supremacy over Italy.

The emperor represented real power until death of Frederick II. It was far less centralized than in other temporary kingdoms, but The empire still represented major power in central Europe.

Having not HRE nor Germany would be far more inaccurate than having Germany. Because there still was strong power of the Empire, although it was weakened by increasing powers of dukes and princes of HRE.

My suggestion (useless now) Have no Kingdom of Italy in Early and High period (only states like Genoa, Venice, League of Lombardy) and HRE covering the rest of Italy straightly.

[HappyAdolf]

Elewyn has the solution! Boah, now we can stop discussing tis, at last!!! That's a good solution as everytime, Elewyn:go:

[Ledhead]

Originally posted by Angryminer
Who are the germans? There were no germans in that era!

Angryminer

The Germans are of germanic origin. They consisted of many germanic tribes, the Saxons and the Thüringians for instance.
The Frankish (a German tribe) king Charlemagne subdued almost all the germanic tribes under his crown. After that his Frankish kindom fell apart the west-Franks assimilated heavily with the celtic-latin culture they lived in but the east-Franks kept to their germanic origins. So when we speak of these germanic tribes we refer to them as Germans as they had a central authority, the King of the Germans. Otto I is refered to in the encylopedias as King of the Germans, and later Emperor...
If KoH starts around the year 1000 you don't have any significant German tribes acting sovereign, politically.
Hope this helped.

I think you mistook the sence in what the word means today and what it meant historically then. Or rather, how we use it and how it was used.

BTW, the matter is closed but the thread just won't die...
Facinating:D

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by Ledhead

BTW, the matter is closed but the thread just won't die...
Facinating:D


Eheh..:cool:

[Elewyn]

it's crazy, that's right. but... I can't help myself and must post replys...

to react on Michel at German thread.
He wants duchies as the best choice. His argument is spain and France which are dicvided into smaller kingdoms. Why it is in Spain and France and not in Germany?

Because of "foreign policy"
German duchies from what I know made wars among themselves, sometimes they married their daughters to Hungary or Bojhemia or Poland or French duchies, but they didn't make their own foreign policy like Hungary, Bohemia, HolyRomanEmpire and France and also Normandy and Flandre also did.

Also in Italy. Kingdom of Italy never had it's own foreign policy because king of Italy, if there was some, was the same person like the Emperor, so he made policy of the Empire. Venice or Geona had their own foreign policy.

Only after cca 1250 german duchies become more independent in foreign policy (but still not as much as f.e. Bohemia) there still was Emperor as representant of the HRE. Also in 14th century.

When in 1350 entry point in KoH there are states like Austria, Brandenburg etc, but there is still "the rest of HRE" as their feudal overlord, it still should be called HRE, but I wouldn't mind calling it Germany that much here. But as I am open to Germany in the late period, so I am unopen to Germany in the early and the high period.

Reason why I write this is to show how unfair would be naming it Germany. I know I won't change anything. I would send this too after Frujin's final solution

It's a pity that Frujin is so busy that he cannot show us the statement. Especially when we all know it is already decided.

[timurlenk]

ding a ling, 100 votes!



germany 23: 23.00%
holy roman empire 65: 65.00%
i don't care 10: 10.00%
what's the holy roman empire? 2: 2.00%


i let the vote speak for me :cheers:

[Elewyn]

Devs?

it's really confusing to know you are already decided for quite long time and announcing nothing.

I know you are probably very busy this time (ooooh for how long time will you be so busy :(), so Iask simple question which can be answered simply yes or no and it reveals something about this issue.

will the name be same in all entry points?
if not , it's quite simple what it will be and it confuses me very much (,maybe not only me, all those 65 voters here and majority of voters in german forum also)

As last wird, I must say I hope you decided really wisely

[Angryminer]

Today I read the first page of this thread again. I was searching for your maps of the HRE but unfortunately they are gone...
However, I believe I understand the arguments of Frujin better now:Please, understand what we did - we joined all smaller and/or not-so-independant states into one big called Germany. The rest (biggest, most independant) exists with their own names and are VASSALS of Germany. Simple, fair enough, well balanced for the player to "feel" the huge power of HRE existing in Cewntral Europe.

We just got rid of name HRE. But you can "think" of HRE as Germany + it's vassal states.In a nutshell: "The big yellow blob (http://www.knights-of-honor.net//gfx/screenshots/scr_koh_0119.jpg) + Bohemia is the HRE. So what is the big yellow blob then?" They decided for germany. But I think they should cut the 'big yellow blob' into some more parts (Flandern, Bavaria, Austria, etc.), make them all vasalls of this 'big yellow blob' and call it 'German Corelands' because most of the electorates were in fact 'german'. As a gimnick this would make the HRE much more interesting to play, because you have to keep your vasalls on your side ;) .

Oh, and one funny thing:Posted by Angryminer on 28-03-2004
In my opinion a HRE consisting of vasallities etc (see Elewyn's map) suits history much more than something like "Germany", and I really think that there will be a few hundrets of posts about that...Hey! I can see into the future! Nearly 300 Posts in this topic! ;)

Angryminer

[Ben Nevis]

Maybe make an option out of this? Enable the gamer to choose between the correct names (for the gamers with some sense of history) and the current names (for the dummies). I think you should be consequent, thus when you use Germany, you should also use Romania and Spain. Thus the option for the dummies should just be based on the place on the current map of Europe and not some type of mix between both.

Making this option seems rather easy to me.

[Elewyn]

I am absolutely aggainst names like Spain or Romania in 1200 A.D. If yes for those names, then in random map. But It will be lie to show map of Europe in approx. 1200 with states like Romania, Slovakia, Belatus, Belgium, Germany, Greece, Czechia...

btw. I have probably diferent úaging, Angryminer. Can you, please tell me which date is for that post?

Frujin, can you PLEASE show your final statement?sorry for my impaience

[Angryminer]

Oh, I'm really sorry. I forgot that my preferences are set to '50 posts per page'.

Here (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=837&perpage=50&pagenumber=1) is the link to the first 50 posts of this thread ;) .
Anyway, the second page won't harm :D .

Angryminer